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Teasing the Crane in the Tang Collection?

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Author Topic: Teasing the Crane in the Tang Collection?  (Read 777 times)
cshapiro
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« on: June 04, 2017, 05:53:20 pm »

In the Bonham's Bloch sale of an 1894 Ding Erzhong called "Teasing the Crane" there is a reference to an exact copy of the bottle in the Tang Collection. 
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19621/lot/86/

I would like to research that bottle.
However, I can't seem to figure out what Tang Collection are they referring to, and if there a published version of this exact copy somewhere?

Text from Bonham's in quotes below:

Quote
There is also an exact copy of this bottle published, which we must deal with to avoid any confusion in assessing Ding's career and standing as an artist (Deng Zhong'an 1993, p. 111, no. 4.2). It bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke. It also has identical inscriptions on both sides. It would be highly unlikely for an artist of Ding's integrity to produce two identical bottles, with precisely the same compositions and strokes, even down to the lines of stone-work on the wall beneath the child. To be a painter for a living does not imply a lack of integrity, and it is quite clear from what we know of Ding's career that, like Zhou Leyuan, his artistic integrity was never compromised by his commercial standing. It would be quite out of the question, therefore, for him to add to these identical compositions the same two inscriptions, word for word and similarly placed. It is quite obvious which of the two bottles is the copy. The glass bottle in the Tang Collection is of an atypical form for a Beijing School bottle. It is slightly more flared at the sides, and the foot lacks the separation from the line of the body typical of earlier glass blanks for painting. The Tang example appears to have been produced by the same fakers as those in the Japanese collection discussed under Sale 3, lot 104. The Zhirou Zhai Collection, from which the Bloch bottle comes, was formed in Hong Kong, mostly from local dealers as the source, in the years prior to 1993. It seems likely that this bottle was copied exactly, either in person or from photographs, and the copy sold to one collector while the original was acquired by another.
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George
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2017, 10:28:18 pm »

Here is the book/collection.. , and is on p. 111, no. 4.2

Apparently it bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke.

Maybe someone has this book and can help you more...
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cshapiro
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2017, 11:39:03 pm »

Ah thanks George! Yes, it would be great if someone has the book and could post a picture of the page - to save me from having to buy the book.

Wink
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 09:37:31 am »

Dear George,

     I checked the Au Hang Collection volume. The bottle is not in it. P.111 shows 4 Quartz bottles, #142-145.
And nothing has a catalogue number including a period.
Best,
Joey
 



Here is the book/collection.. , and is on p. 111, no. 4.2

Apparently it bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke.

Maybe someone has this book and can help you more...
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

cshapiro
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 10:13:54 am »

Thanks Joey - that book is $200 so it would be super disappointing to buy it and find it didn't have the bottle.

There is another collection called the Dr. Marcos Tang collection of snuff bottles. Perhaps that is it? If anyone has this book maybe they could check? I would be most appreciative
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 10:16:23 am »

Dear George,

     I checked the Au Hang Collection volume. The bottle is not in it. P.111 shows 4 Quartz bottles, #142-145.
And nothing has a catalogue number including a period.
Best,
Joey
 



Here is the book/collection.. , and is on p. 111, no. 4.2

Apparently it bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke.

Maybe someone has this book and can help you more...

Sorry for the wrong information Cathy...

Joey,

What is this Deng Zhong'an 1993, p. 111 , no 4.2 comment ( below ) from another collector referencing ?  I obviously got it wrong and thought it was within the Au Hang Collection.

"There is also an exact copy of this bottle published, (Deng Zhong'an 1993, p. 111, no. 4.2). It bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke".
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 12:27:20 pm »

Dear George,

     I'm sorry, but I don't recognise the reference,  "Deng Zhong'an, 1993".

Dear Cathy,

     No problem. I actually received my copy as a gift, when I visited the late Mr. Au in his then new home in Toronto, in Mar.1996, with the late Prof. Victor Graham, another very close friend.
     And I'm still very friendly with Mr. Au's daughter Anita, and son & daughter-in-law Albert and Esther; the latter couple live in Toronto, while Anita is in the SFO area. We always meet at conventions, but when I'm in Toronto, I usually go out with the Aus for Chinese food. I invite them to Lai Wah Heen, and then they invite me to some place they know.

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 09:18:41 pm »



Joey,

What is this Deng Zhong'an 1993, p. 111 , no 4.2 comment ( below ) from another collector referencing ?  I obviously got it wrong and thought it was within the Au Hang Collection.

"There is also an exact copy of this bottle published, (Deng Zhong'an 1993, p. 111, no. 4.2). It bears the same two subjects, including the unique one for Ding of the boy teasing the crane, both of them copied stroke for stroke".

Cathy, this is the only reference I could find, and sorry, but I do not know how to connect it to the publication.
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 09:21:03 pm »

Hi All,

I'm confused. Cathy asked about the Tang Collection, but received a reply about the Au Hang Collection, of which there is a book.

The name Dr. Marcos Tang rings a bell. If I recall correctly, his collection was auctioned 3-4 years ago. Some wonderful "shibui" (elegantly restrained) bottles which appealed to me in that sale. I am not aware of a book though, only the auction catalogue.

Tom
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 09:33:38 pm »

Hi All,

I'm confused. Cathy asked about the Tang Collection, but received a reply about the Au Hang Collection, of which there is a book.

 

When I was Googling those key words, I ended up some how at the Au Hang Collection.. 

Don't pay no mind to me !  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2017, 09:39:39 pm »

No problem - it happens to me all the time....  Grin  Cool
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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 02:32:39 am »

Dear all,

Marco Tang is a medical doctor in Hong Kong and the father of a friend of mine.  I have a copy of his catalog.

Cathy, are you trying to see if a bottle of the same theme was in his collection?  I can check and revert.

Curt

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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 03:33:04 am »

Dear Curt,

That would be wonderful if you would! Yes, I am trying to see "Teasing the Crane" by Ding Erzhong owned by your friend's father.

Tom said the collection was auctioned off, so if it's not too much trouble perhaps you could ask if he still owns it? If not, does he know what happened to it?
 
The auction house claimed the Tang copy was a fake - but was executed exactly the same.

I really would like to see pictures of that bottle! I have found the catalog, and have ordered it - but it's coming from England so will take a while.

The reason I ask is because I have found a bottle that appears to be a very close copy - from the pictures I have it's not an exact copy - there do appear to be some slight differences particularly on the landscape on the reverse side. I don't have it in hand yet, but was wondering if it might be the copy from the Tang Collection.

I will post pictures of the bottle when I get it.

Thanks everyone for the help!


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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 01:20:15 am »

Cathy, here is the bottle in the Tang's catalog.



* IMG_2590.PNG (336.04 KB, 360x640 - viewed 20 times.)

* IMG_2591.PNG (436.31 KB, 360x640 - viewed 20 times.)

* IMG_2592.PNG (424.18 KB, 360x640 - viewed 21 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 07:09:02 pm »

Thanks Curt for sharing!

But I think the Ding Erzhong bottle from Tang collection is a fake one. I have seen a couple of fake ding bottles on the market. Be cautious, they are good copies, but we better watch closer.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2017, 07:12:00 pm »

Thanks Curt for sharing!

But I think the Ding Erzhong bottle from Tang collection is a fake one. I have seen a couple of fake ding bottles on the market. Be cautious, they are good copies, but we better watch closer.Smiley

Steven

I think that is where this is going.. I have to find where I read it, but the Tang bottle is one of a few that are somehow or for some reason connected to Japanese fakes.. 
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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2017, 07:19:27 pm »

Dear George,

     I agree with Steven, but do not understand your reference to "Japanese fakes". What connection has Japan to fake IPSBs?
 
   There was no tradition of Japanese IP work.
I can understand Japanese copying (I would not use the term faking) Chinese Imperial Palace Workshops and other  Ivory SBs, or Cinnabar Lacquer SBs (though the Cinnabars I've seen are all obviously Japanese, and usually BETTER than the Chinese examples), or Embellished wares (with the same 2 conditions as the previous example); but not IPSBs.
Best,
Joey


Thanks Curt for sharing!

But I think the Ding Erzhong bottle from Tang collection is a fake one. I have seen a couple of fake ding bottles on the market. Be cautious, they are good copies, but we better watch closer.Smiley

Steven

I think that is where this is going.. I have to find where I read it, but the Tang bottle is one of a few that are somehow or for some reason connected to Japanese fakes.. 
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

cshapiro
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2017, 07:23:34 pm »

Curt,

Thank you so much!
Now I know for sure that the bottle I just bought is not the one from the Tang Collection.

I don't have the bottle yet - I only have very fuzzy pictures, so I put together a comparison with what I have:
The original Teasing the Crane from the Bloch Collection on the left,
the one I just bought in the middle,
and the one from the Tang Collection on the right.

I really can't tell the quality of the painting or calligraphy until it gets here, but it is obvious from even the fuzzy picture that it is not a match to either one.



 
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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2017, 07:40:59 pm »

Dear George,

     I agree with Steven, but do not understand your reference to "Japanese fakes". What connection has Japan to fake IPSBs?
 
   There was no tradition of Japanese IP work.
I can understand Japanese copying (I would not use the term faking) Chinese Imperial Palace Workshops and other  Ivory SBs, or Cinnabar Lacquer SBs (though the Cinnabars I've seen are all obviously Japanese, and usually BETTER than the Chinese examples), or Embellished wares (with the same 2 conditions as the previous example); but not IPSBs.
Best,
Joey



This is a quote from an archived posting and a member who is no longer here.. Not on the public forum..

I was incorrect in remembering being Japanese fakes, it was about fakers related to a Japanese collection.  Sorry about that..

Quote:

"The glass bottle in the Tang Collection is of an atypical form for a Beijing School bottle. It is slightly more flared at the sides, and the foot lacks the separation from the line of the body typical of earlier glass blanks for painting. The Tang example appears to have been produced by the same fakers as those in the Japanese collection discussed under Sale 3, lot 104. The Zhirou Zhai Collection, from which the Bloch bottle comes, was formed in Hong Kong, mostly from local dealers as the source, in the years prior to 1993".
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2017, 08:27:03 pm »

Dear Cathy,

I have to say that the bottle in the middle is a modern copy as well.

Ding NEVER Paint same bottle TWICE, since he is a scholar, not a commercial inside painting artist, specially at same year with the same script. If you have better photos, I might be able to explain more why its a modern fake.

Best,

Steven   
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