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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2017, 07:55:44 pm
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Duan Stone with Fittings Help Please

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Author Topic: Duan Stone with Fittings Help Please  (Read 473 times)
Snipes
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« on: May 12, 2017, 05:46:54 pm »

Hello all,

Obviously I'm new to your site so please go EZ on me.  Smiley

I was hoping you all can please help me identify the possible age and origin of the fittings mounted and attached to this inscribed Duan stone SB.

The silver chain and mounts look 19th century to my eye, and the gilt metal ornament looks much, much older than the bottle and silver mounts. My guess on origin of both mounts and ornament are China, but I could be wrong. There is some thing about that ornament that looks a bit Japanese(?).

I've never seen a SB mounted in this manner before and I'm hoping you all can help?

Regards,
Jo


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* DUAN STONE SNUFF BOTTLE 007-001.JPG (154.52 KB, 721x800 - viewed 19 times.)
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George
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2017, 06:09:31 pm »



I've never seen a SB mounted in this manner before and I'm hoping you all can help?

Regards,
Jo


Hi Jo, and warm welcome to the forum !

What an interesting piece, and neither have I seen one similar.. I am almost positive the incised calligraphy was not done with any rotary tools, but instead with an "iron brush" by hand..  A closer look at the calligraphy would be nice to see... 

I love it, but need to hear from others more experienced for the ornament work... 

I would like to see the opening and stopper separate...  It gives a very feminine impression to me... 

Looking forward to hearing what others think !

It is wonderful though..
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 06:11:55 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

Snipes
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 06:54:55 pm »

Hi George and thank you!

I have or had other SB's before, but this piece is a keeper for sure!

I'm quite sure the inscriptions are period, but the clover(?)-linked silver chain, mounts and that gilt-metal ornament are just some thing I've never seen mounted and/or attached to a SB before.....nor can I find anything similar. The ornament looks VERY old and it's fitted into a custom silver garment hook.

These aren't the best images, but it's the best I can do for now. That inset within the stopper is pure gold.

Hopefully, you all can help?

Jo


* CLOSE UP 001-001.JPG (128.18 KB, 703x800 - viewed 14 times.)

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* CLOSE UP 004-001.JPG (164.22 KB, 620x800 - viewed 13 times.)

* CLOSE UP 006-001.JPG (216.35 KB, 716x800 - viewed 20 times.)
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George
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 07:33:00 pm »

Now that have seen the stopper, am leaning towards this being a scent bottle, rather than for snuff..

I am sure the calligraphy etching was hand carved with iron brush.. Not rotary tooled.

I would like to know who or what that face is suppose to represent..  Japanese Huh
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Snipes
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 07:49:39 pm »

Duan Stone SB, just converted into a scent bottle sometime during the 19th C., but by who? The Chinese or Japanese?

One gets rid of the silver mounts and change out the stopper, it's back to being what it was originally intended to be, a SB.

The ornament is metal (iron?) and not bronze as a magnet sticks to it.

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Snipes
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 08:03:43 pm »

The translation of the inscription (能容物斯能舒欎) doesn't make much sense to me.

As per Google Translator...

Chinese: Can be satisfied with Sri Lanka.

Japanese: Sorcery Functionality.


Change-out the old variant 欎 (Yu) for 郁 (Yu) and you get this...

Chinese: Can be satisfied with the material can be comfortable.

Japanese: No matter what it is.
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George
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 10:11:21 pm »

Google translator is very poor, so would not give the translation from it much use..

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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2017, 01:56:56 am »

Been searching for clues related to that ( mythical ? ) face.. I can not find it looking for both Chinese and Japanese..

That may be a clue if we knew what that was..  I can't find it...
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forestman
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 03:31:47 am »

Hi Jo,

Very interesting piece that has a Japanese feel to me.

You say the ornament is fitted with a garment hook so the whole piece could be worn as an Inro was worn with the hook doing the job a netsuke would normally do in holding it on the sash that holds a kimono in place.

You can see from the picture I've added of one of my Inro's that it has similar rings holding it's cord to the rings holding the chain on your item.

I'm wondering if the ornament could be some sort of adapted drawer handle as it's style is different to the rest of the piece, older and heavier. The face does look mythical as George says, the ears aren't human so some happy ogre ?

All the metalwork looks Japanese, the ornament having the feel of sword fittings, the stopper having the feel of an ojime bead and the chain is highly worked. The chain must have been made in sections around the rings as the links between the rings are to big to fit through the rings.

Regards, Adrian.

 


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George
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 05:12:35 am »

Very nice Adrian !

So funny, as I found myself Googling ojime when I was both looking for chain comparisons, as well as the mythical looking face.. There was something Japanese for me too.. I could not find anything though..

I think you are as close as anyone might come for guessing and describing this piece.. !

So we are back to trying to figure out Jo's question as to why the duanstone bottle in Chinese script with Japanese accessories, and making heads or tails of the Google translated, "satisfied with Sri Lanka", and "Sorcery"  .. 

It is indeed an interesting little piece ! 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 05:25:46 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 05:47:40 am »

Hi Jo,

It is possible that the original bottle was damaged at some stage in its life, and someone rescued it by adapting it. It is also possible that the metalwork reflects the craftsman's skills at the place it was restored, rather than the taste of the person who commissioned the work. We will probably never know!

The original snuff bottle inscription looks similar to other duanstone bottles that were popularly inscribed by scholars and literati during the 1800s using, as George says, the iron brush.

Tom
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 08:01:52 am »

Hi All.... the meaning of the wording has 2 folds

能容物斯能舒欎 can be read as 能容物,斯能舒欎。

能容物..... Means... can contain something....
斯能.....  means... therefore can
舒... Comfort
欎..... Troubled (mind)

Why it has 2 fold meaning....

It can mean literally this bottle can contain (snuff) and therefore can comfort your troubled mind.

It can also mean.... if you have the virtual of a gentleman and can forgive and forget.. then you can have a peaceful mind.

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2017, 12:39:04 pm »

Wow!

I just wanted to thank you all for taking the timeout to try and help solve this little mystery. Most, most appreciated!

The translation now makes total sense, thank you!

I agree the piece does have a Japanese feel (thanks for posting that Inro), but I'm not totally convinced as of yet that Japan is the origin of the mounts/ornament. A breakdown of the ornament symbols appear Chinese; mythical lion's head, scrolling lotus or flower, key-fret and a ruyi-head with coin at center. I love the way the craftsman imitated the design style of the coin within the ruyi-head and used it to design the chain's links as seen in the two posted images below. This is something I hadn't notice until this morning.  Embarrassed   

I also agree that the piece may have been slightly restored at left at some point in its life, and maybe this is why the mounts/etc were used? As stated, we will probably never know!   

My thoughts on the dating of the bottle itself was/is: 1780 - 1820.

Do you all agree? If not, your thoughts please...

Again, a big, big thank you to you all for helping.



* DUAN STONE SNUFF BOTTLE 007-002.JPG (152.52 KB, 800x727 - viewed 14 times.)

* DUAN STONE SNUFF BOTTLE 004-002.JPG (84.4 KB, 448x800 - viewed 11 times.)
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 01:00:38 pm »

Not really a comparable, but I did find an 18th/19th SB converted into a match strike with late-19th American silver mounts (image below).

I also wonder if the ornament could be a sword fitting?

Found our little happy lion's head (please see image).



* 866N09666_992QX.jpg (86.74 KB, 644x800 - viewed 20 times.)

* lionswordmix4.jpg (256.04 KB, 706x800 - viewed 17 times.)
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Snipes
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 04:30:05 pm »

After a couple of hours digging around, I believe Adrian did in fact nail this thing!

The SB appears to have been converted sometime in the 19th C. by a Japanese craftsman into an Inro-style piece.

The SB acting as the Inro, stopper the Ojime, ornament with customized fitted garment hook the Netsuke and chain acting as the Cord holding all pieces together.

Great work Adrian and thank you!
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2017, 08:32:54 pm »

This was a fun topic !

Can I ask to be put on the list if you ever decide to part with it  Wink



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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2017, 09:02:38 pm »

I sure will, George, no problem!

But for now, it's going on the self next to this rare beauty also purchased in the same week.

Only other example of that piece I could locate is housed within the V&A Museum collection as seen in the last image. Nearly identical, but theirs is incomplete, mine is complete!  Grin

Jo


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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2017, 09:03:22 pm »

*shelf
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2017, 10:01:48 pm »

Nice find !!

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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 04:24:03 am »

Hi Jo,

Happy to have been able to help in some way.

I have come close to buying a couple of full sized lacquered picnic sets as I collect any bits of lacquer that appeal to me, and fit my budget, mainly Inro, covered bowls, tea caddies etc.

I held back on bidding higher on a nice lacquered kodansu cabinet yesterday as I was waiting for some nice snuff bottles and 2 Inro to come up later. Needless to say they all went for higher than I was hoping and the kodansu would have been a good buy. I did win a nice overlay bottle and hopefully I got a real Ye Zhongsan as well !

Regards, Adrian.

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