General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Steven shared this beautiful Ma Shaoxian bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 18, 2017, 06:47:27 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

The Mysterious Ku Yueh Hsuan

Poll
Question: V8qoF
zNsKmvbMHP - 0 (0%)
kGrKGjKPLA - 0 (0%)
FggeZNoGAtY - 0 (0%)
DrbgahRgJXw - 0 (0%)
HyFljjjK - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 0

Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: The Mysterious Ku Yueh Hsuan  (Read 440 times)
cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2017, 12:04:25 am »

Pat, thanks for explaining about the colors. The colors do seem delicate to me in person - but I don't have anything but pictures to compare them to.

I also thought the condition of the enamel was too perfect but had seen many examples on Christie's and other auction sites where the bottles are in pristine condition. On some of them they date them from 1770-1960! Quite a range there!  

I am out of town at the moment and so don't have the bottle with me. I didn't know to check about the base mark being incised so will examine it and report back when I get back home.

I have been really studying the known bottles of Ye Benqi and have a theory that his mark can be distinguished. Again, I am out of town so don't have the pictures with me, but will post them when I return.

I think there is much to be learned from further study and comparison of these bottles - to me there seem to be some distinct artistic markers  between Wang Xisan bottles and Ye Benqi enameled bottles - an example would be the different way they painted rocks. And it appears to me from the pictures I've seen that Xisan used a much brighter green - of course it's alleged that Benqi actually had access to the original enamel colors so his green's would be truer to the actual bottles. So would really like to follow down these paths much more.

George, that would be wonderful to get those connections! Thanks for sharing the link to the previous posts.

Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2017, 12:37:31 am »

Cathy... One of the very best sources of information for you to understand better the current study of Gu Yue Xuan bottles and marks is the Spring ICSBS journal, "Mysteries of the Ancient Moon"..  It is really excellent.. Even includes a face to face interview with Ye Bengqi.

Here it is online..
http://www.e-yaji.com/books/articles/Mysteries%20of%20the%20Ancient%20Moon/index.html

And here is a current copy on eBay..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JOURNAL-INTERNATIONAL-CHINESE-SNUFF-BOTTLE-SOCIETY-Spring-2006-Vol-XXXVIII-1-/390477963767
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 01:06:57 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2017, 01:50:36 am »

Speaking of Ye Bengqi, you guys might like this short clip of him from 1950...

Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 553


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2017, 02:17:46 am »

In respect of the base marks with three characters in a straight line, there are some variations in these marks as well.

Robert Halls book Chinese Snuff Bottles from 1987 has two examples. One has the mark in black enamel which is on an enamel on pearlised opalescent glass bottle. The other has a relief carved mark in seal script on a plain opaque milk coloured bottle with mask and ring handles.

There are nine examples in the Burghley House collection, all described as "the base inscribed in red guyuexuan" but without any pictures of the marks.

There were two recent examples in the Christie's sale of the Ruth and Carl Barron Collection, Part IV. Both marks were in red enamel although one was rendered differently to normal in being similar to seal script.

The E.B Curtis book, Pure Brightness Shines Everywhere shows an example of the three character mark incised but left plain, so not filled with enamel.   

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2017, 04:05:06 pm »

Thanks George and Adrian! Great references!

Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 02:55:18 pm »

I realize I never replied back about the base of my bottle.
The base is not incised (at least I don't think) but it's not raised either.  It's flat, so I don't know what to make of that.
When I run my finger across, it feels smooth.

I think that this may be a lifelong pursuit that may never have a happy ending, but it doesn't stop me from trying! Wink

Here's a picture of the base sideways so you can see the light reflected on it.







« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 03:03:51 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 06:36:58 pm »

I don't think it should be incised unless an older bottle. Seems like they are usually heaped enamel on the base. So for me the flat paint may be a clue that I don't remember.

Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2017, 07:28:07 pm »

Yes George, I don't think it's incised - if it were there would be some clues around the edges I imagine. Maybe it's just really thin. hahaha

Oh by the way I got that journal - very informative - thanks.

Lately I have been on a BBB - bottle buying binge! Which is why I'm posting so much.
I have however improved my BBA - bottle batting average to a decent one out of every three I buy and a lot of the bad bottles just come with the good ones too.

However on enameled glass I'm probably 0 to 10, but I console myself that what they lack in value they make up for in enjoyment.

So when I get time, I will continue the thread of shame with more of my enameled glass treasures. Wink

« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 07:36:12 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2017, 10:17:53 pm »

    I still have a bottle I bought in 1982 from Peter Lee of Hong Kong, at the NYC ICSBS convention. It is a very nice enameled glass, #76 in my 1987 catalogue, and was sold to me for US$400 as a work of Ye Bengqi's. And I so attributed it.

   It is definitely NOT by Ye Bengqi, but may well be by Wang Xisan. I have seen students of Wang Xisan's in enameling, which he also taught, having been taught by Ye Bengqi himself, a great master. The signature on your bottle resembles some of their works.

Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2017, 12:28:54 am »

Wow Joey! Thanks!! Your bottle is amazing - do you still have it?

When I first saw this bottle, it reminded me of Ye Bengqi's earliest bottles. Unfortunately I haven't seen many of Wang Xisan's enameled bottles and pictures are hard to find, so thanks for the reference.  I have been saving as many verified signatures from both masters - these are also hard to find.

I will try to put them together and post them here Wink

$400 for a Wang Xisan - wow



« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 12:50:06 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2017, 01:31:54 am »

I have been saving as many verified signatures from both masters - these are also hard to find.






Here are some names.. But I am currently having a hard time making contact, learning about other student artists, viewing any signed bottles, or getting prices.  Although of course have seen many of You Fenghua's beautiful bottles in catalogues. 

Liu  Heping, Ye Aiping, You Fenghua and Sun Jianguo are Wang Xisan's students.

Liu Heping has moved to Tianjin City.
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2017, 08:41:52 am »

Dear George,

Tomi Shen has been able to come up with some amazing references on the FB page. I'm going to ask him if he has any photos of the signatures. I think he may be related to the Xisan family in some way - will get the answer on that too!

Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2017, 08:48:19 am »

   At the time, I thought it was US$400 for a Ye Bengqi!
But you are right - that is a bargain for a Wang Xisan as well. And yes, I do still have the bottle.

   I will be exhibiting it in London in the Collectors' Display at Bonhams (I think). I will be displaying 20 B & Ws; 18 IPSBs, all Middle Period (3 Ding Erzhong, 3 Zhou Leyuan, 3 Ma Shaoxuan,  3 Ma Shaoxian, 4 Ye Zhongsan/Ye Family, 1 Tang Zichuan, possibly one Wang Xisan); and 12 assorted materials, including the enameled glass bottle.  

  


Wow Joey! Thanks!! Your bottle is amazing - do you still have it?

When I first saw this bottle, it reminded me of Ye Bengqi's earliest bottles. Unfortunately I haven't seen many of Wang Xisan's enameled bottles and pictures are hard to find, so thanks for the reference.  I have been saving as many verified signatures from both masters - these are also hard to find.

I will try to put them together and post them here Wink

$400 for a Wang Xisan - wow




Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 553


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2017, 10:40:02 am »

Hi Cathy,

I thought the following pictures might be useful to you as one is a large detail picture which you rarely see.

They are from a Christie's catalogue for a October 2014 sale in Hong Kong of "Important Chinese snuff bottles from a distinguished American collector".

The bottle described as "Imperial, Palace workshops, Beijing, Qianlong blue enamel 4 character mark and of the period, 1750-1780". Guide price $310,00-450,000. Height 1.75 inches.

One thing the text about the bottle mentioned is a common characteristic of the glass on these bottles having concentric rings of more transparent glass between layers of whiter, translucent material which is seen on the lip.

I have 3 modern Guyue xuan bottles, all with the 3 character mark, and they all have the concentric rings showing.

Regards, Adrian.



* P6150593.jpg (123.77 KB, 850x638 - viewed 12 times.)

* P6150594.jpg (139.29 KB, 638x850 - viewed 12 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2017, 11:08:19 am »

Thanks Adrian! If you run across any original reign marks please send those too for my collection. Wink

And post your bottles on this thread. I think the more we look at them (old and new) and compare, we improve our chances of making better decisions in the future.

Allow me to share a couple of mine that have me confused! They are probably modern, but so well done! How can one tell the difference? Wink

The top one has transparent layers sandwiched in the glass. The bottom one is translucent pearl like glass. The top one has more of a flat base mark, the bottom one is raised. The enamel is thin on the top, thicker on the bottom. Neither one shows much wear.



« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 11:31:28 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2017, 04:37:27 pm »

They are both totally modern, but very well done.
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2017, 08:01:50 pm »

Thanks Joey - they are very pretty and I imagine took a great deal of skill to make. 

I would really like to someday see an authentic enameled glass in person.
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2017, 08:12:47 pm »

Carey Stanley had a few...
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2017, 08:30:52 pm »

Dear Joey,

I have been begging Carey to let me come look at his bottles for almost a year now - ever since I bought the hornbill and still no luck! In his defense he has had some health problems.

I am going to persist and not give up hope because he also has a Ma Shaoxuan, a hornbill dated before 1850, and many other treasures that I would very much like to see in person!!!

I call him every two weeks to check on him, and (since he's a little forgetful) to remind him he promised I could come see them! hahaha
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2017, 08:34:59 pm »

Hopefully, you'll get in to see his treasures. I understand he bought some beautiful
bottles 20-30 years ago, but was not easy to deal with.
Good luck.
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal