The Mysterious Ku Yueh Hsuan

[cshapiro]

Lilla Perry's book had a formative influence on my collecting, and so I am still in search of the mysterious Ku Yueh Hsuan (to take a phrase from her book).

This time I think I got much closer.

The things I was looking for were:
A bit of translucency in the milk glass (especially visible at the neck)
Thin glaze over the enamel
Correct detail, colors, subject matter, and shape
and the right mark on the bottom

I would be curious to get opinions on this bottle. Thanks in advance!

[Luke]

Hi Cathy,

I'm not sure who Ku Yueh Hsuan is. Is Lilla Perry's book worth getting? I have a load books on SBs and I'm wondering at this stage whether it would hold any value for me...

If I had to guess I would say your snuff bottle is modern. The older 18th Century ones I've seen the glass looks very different imo and also the illustrations looks more painterly...  i'm not sure about late 19th century of this type though... also, the colours in my view look off... take my advice with a pinch of salt though

Best
Luke

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Hi Cathy

Agree with Luke that this is likely a modern bottle.  One giveaway would be the mark on the base, if the lettering is raised it is very likely modern.   It also seems a bit 'simple' in style of painting,  and colors are off.   The white color itself wouldn't exclude it from being old, however...

It is Gu Yue Xuan (Ancient Moon Pavilion) in modern spelling.

Hello Luke

Yes, the Perry book is definitely a must to have, as well as the Hitt book.  Just my input....

[Rube]

Cathy,

I too, have referenced the Perry book quite often, and found it to be informative and entertaining.  It helped me identify my probably not so old Ancient Moon Pavillion glazed bottle too!

Luke, you can purchase her book on Amazon as it's quite affordable.

Cheers,


Rheuben.

[Luke]

Thanks for the info Pat and Rheuben about the book. I just saw one on Amazon here in the UK and got a copy for £5! I've heard a lot of collectors say good things about this book, so glad I ordered a copy. And can't go wrong for £5

[cshapiro]

Agree with Luke that this is likely a modern bottle.  One giveaway would be the mark on the base, if the lettering is raised it is very likely modern.   It also seems a bit 'simple' in style of painting,  and colors are off.   The white color itself wouldn't exclude it from being old, however...

Hi Pat - could you explain why you think the colors are off? I know colors are difficult to describe, but specifics would be helpful.

I disagree about the simple style of painting though. The style of the painting seems correct to me. Could you expound on that too?
I also posted this on the facebook Collecting Chinese Snuff Bottle page and am getting a different response there.  One Chinese member posted an example of how the theme is similar to a Wang Xisan sketch. 

[Wattana]

Thanks for the info Pat and Rheuben about the book. I just saw one on Amazon here in the UK and got a copy for £5! I've heard a lot of collectors say good things about this book, so glad I ordered a copy. And can't go wrong for £5

Hi Luke,

Lilla Perry's book was considered to be the 'Bible' of snuff bottle collectors for many years. From 1960, when it was first published, until the late 1980s, when many more English language books began appearing, there really wasn't a better reference book for anyone starting out as a bottle collector. And a lot of its content is still valid today.

I paid US$65.00 for my copy in 1972, plus shipping from the publishers in Tokyo, so five quid is indeed a bargain! 

Tom

[Wattana]

Hi Cathy,

The chances of finding a genuine Gu Yue Xuan snuff bottle in such pristine condition are extremely slim. I'm not talking about examples in the museums of Taipei and Beijing, which have hardly been handled in 200 years. But if you take a good look at the ones which show up at auction from time to time the enamel is usually faded from wear in the more exposed areas, often quite badly so.

When the inside painting artist Ye Bengqi began making superb copies in the 1930s he was not able to actually handle the bottles, as they were behind the showcase glass!  So he had to guess what was written on the base. Neither did he know that the base marks were wheel-cut and filled with enamel.

Nonetheless, his copies managed to fool the experts for decades, and sometimes still do, for one good reason. He had access to the surplus stock of enamel from the Palace workshops, so was able to reproduce the colours exactly. Some of that 200-year-old stock was still available when Wang Xisan started experimenting with enamels on glass in the early 1960s, before he moved on to inside painting.

Ye Bengqi and Wang Xisan enamel-on-glass copies are now fetching high prices at auction in their own right, as known copies. (A bit like Adrian's fake Monet.  )

But there are several talented enamel artists out there today producing excellent bottles. I suspect your posted bottle is one of them. An attractive example, but modern nevertheless.

Tom

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Hi Kathy,
frankly I can’t understand you, if I may speak openly. Pat is super correct, the bottle is modern and the painting style speaks clearly. Can I tell you why you are not able to see that by yourself? In my opinion it is because you are keeping your foot in two shoes, as we say (I don’t know if there is the same saying in English), with the problem that in this case the two shoes are very different. If you doubt Pat because someone on Facebook has told you that he likes your bottle, sorry, it means that you do not see the difference between the two shoes. If you post a picture of your cat on Facebook everybody will tell you that it is pretty nice, and most probably even if actually it isn’t. And in general, the main purpose of Facebook is just for things of that level, quite different from a specialized site like this one. You should decide if continue relying on Facebook or made a step more, and trust Pat instead (meaning, by Pat, the whole knowledge of this site).
Kind regards
Giovanni

[cshapiro]

Tom,

Very true and I know the odds are against it. This bottle has good provenance though - so that made me hopeful that it might be a Ye Benqi or maybe even a Ye Zhongsan produced bottle - because from the articles I have read it appears that there are some by his hand out there. I bought it from the same dealer in New York that I bought the jet bottle from and they say their bottles came from a sale off of bottles from the Met many years ago.

Giovanni,

I would like it very much if we could stick to discussion about the bottles only without criticizing the person. A thoughtful discussion requires input from everyone. I did a lot of research and have opinions that I am constantly re-evaluating. I don't think any collector should blindly follow - questions and discussion further the study of this Chinese art form. I asked Pat to explain his opinions to me so I could learn. And I also would not denegrate the Facebook page. Clare Chu and many other quite knowledgeable collectors participate on that page.

[Fiveroosters aka clayandbrush]

Dear Cathy,
I did criticized Facebook, and I thought that I gave you a suggestion. If you do not like, I am sorry but no problem to me. Personally (may I express my way of seeing things?) I always appreciate when I have a suggestion from somebody else, and the first thing that I ask myself in such case is if the suggestion is good or not, instead of feeling myself offended. If I were in your place in this very case, I would ask myself why it is evident to others that the bottle is modern and not to me. But.. ooops, sorry, I did it again, I gave a suggestion while it seems that you do not like that. Then please apologize.
Giovanni

[George]

There are several companies in China Cathy that have started to duplicate this Guyuexuan process.. Seems like for the most part they are all fairly new companies from about the 1980's duplicating this process on snuff bottles like yours, and also vases..

After viewing even just a few, the differences between these and Early Guyuexuan examples and the Modern ones become easier to ID..

I have only ever held two examples... What a pleasure those were to hold  !

[Wattana]

George,

Thanks for this picture. Because my focus is on snuff bottles, I didn't realize there were so many other objects being fashioned from enameled glass.

By the way, I have one very similar to the bottle at bottom left. Bought it in Bangkok for around $30! It's very skillfully made, and I am happy to have it.

Tom

[George]

By the way, I have one very similar to the bottle at bottom left. Bought it in Bangkok for around $30! It's very skillfully made, and I am happy to have it.

Tom

I have seen many modern enamel painted on glass bottles that like you and Cathy, I have been attracted to... I am patiently waiting to stumble onto a You Fenghua , or with the same luck, any enamel on glass painted bottle with a student signature.. I understood that You Fenghua had support from her piers to start a student school where the students will apparently be starting to sign these kind of works..  If I only knew how to see these student signed bottles, I would likely start to really pay close attention and collect many.  As any student she were to take into her studio would already be of very high caliber ( previously extra talented student IP artists ) and also likely would be in for the long term ..

So far I am not able to find any information about her newly started school or students...

I would sure like to be able and communicate with her, or Yeo Konghoo who is also apparently active with modern Guyuexuan pieces..

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Cathy

The best way I can describe it is that the colors are too harsh, not soft enough.  For example, the rocks and flowers are painted too prominent and the green of the leaves is off for it to be an older example...

Lastly, I don't believe you verified for us the mark, but if it is NOT incised, it is not old.

[George]

Cathy

The best way I can describe it is that the colors are too harsh, not soft enough.  For example, the rocks and flowers are painted too prominent and the green of the leaves is off for it to be an older example...

Lastly, I don't believe you verified for us the mark, but if it is NOT incised, it is not old.

What Pat said really best describes the difference ... But also, not all are incised..

[Wattana]

What Pat said really best describes the difference ... But also, not all are incised..

All,

There are two types of base mark on Gu Yue Xuan wares. One is four characters in blue - similar to the one seen on Cathy's example, which is incised and filled. The other base mark is in red enamel - three characters in a straight line (Gu Yue Xuan) - and NOT incised. On most genuine examples this mark is very worn, in some cases hardly legible.

George,

If you have any luck contacting You Fenghua and her students please let me know!

Tom

[George]

If you have any luck contacting You Fenghua and her students please let me know!

Tom

Within the most recent, "The Mater Enameller", from last years convention, she mentioned in an interview how she has in fact been looking for apprentices/discipleships, but that is all...

Here is an archived topic from China Mike ( who I miss seeing here ! ) telling that mong the students of Mr. Wang Xisan, that there are four that can paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottles.

The three, Liu Heping, You Fenghua and Ye Aiping only paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottle.
Another one is named Sun Jianguo. He can not paint only the Gu Yue Xuan bottle, but also inside painted snuff bottles.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2120.msg27024.html#msg27024

Maybe one of our Chinese friends here can help us make contact ?

[Wattana]

Here is an archived topic from China Mike ( who I miss seeing here ! ) telling that mong the students of Mr. Wang Xisan, that there are four that can paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottles.

The three, Liu Heping, You Fenghua and Ye Aiping only paint the Gu Yue Xuan bottle.
Another one is named Sun Jianguo. He can not paint only the Gu Yue Xuan bottle, but also inside painted snuff bottles.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2120.msg27024.html#msg27024

Maybe one of our Chinese friends here can help us make contact ?

George,

Thanks for reminding me of the thread shown in this link. I'd quite forgotten!

Tom

[George]

George,

If you have any luck contacting You Fenghua and her students please let me know!

Tom

I just sent Mike an email asking if he can help ..