General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Adrain shared this beautiful Ye Zhongsan smokey rock crystal bottle

Photobucket

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
September 26, 2017, 02:59:58 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Painted Warrior Bottle

Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Painted Warrior Bottle  (Read 1476 times)
bokaba
Full Member
***
Posts: 145



View Profile
« on: March 31, 2017, 09:14:47 pm »

Dear Members,

This is a warrior painted bottle I recently purchased. It is about 3 inches and unsigned. In the style of Yong Shoutian, but I understand YST did not use bold blues and usually signed his bottles. I think this bottle may be painted by Tang Zichuan possibly 1890s-1920s.

What are your thoughts on this one?


* s-l1600.jpg (61.73 KB, 383x467 - viewed 43 times.)

* s-l16001.jpg (73.73 KB, 420x509 - viewed 40 times.)

* 941262644_o.jpg (43.5 KB, 286x463 - viewed 26 times.)

* 941262654_o.jpg (124.65 KB, 767x576 - viewed 22 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Brian

Social Buttons

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 444


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 05:12:38 am »

Hi Brian,

I don't see it as by YST or by the artist who signed as YST who may have been a student of his, the horses aren't right for either artist. There was a third artist who painted in a similar style warrior theme but without signing his bottles but I haven't been able to find an example of his work to compare to your bottle.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8360



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 11:59:08 am »

Hi Brian,

I don't see it as by YST or by the artist who signed as YST who may have been a student of his, the horses aren't right for either artist. There was a third artist who painted in a similar style warrior theme but without signing his bottles but I haven't been able to find an example of his work to compare to your bottle.

Regards, Adrian.

I agree with Adrian..  I looked back though many warrior bottles, and can not find one similar ..
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 12:45:38 pm »

Funny - look at how similar each side is - the setting is the same just slight differences - the horse and rider are facing backwards on one side.

IMO - this is a well painted bottle from the middle period and I have seen other unsigned battle scenes that look to be from the same hand. The question is... who painted it?

As a matter of fact, George has a bottle I think is by the same artist.
See his bottle here and note the similarities:

http://snuffbottlejournal.blogspot.com/2015/12/chinese-snuff-bottle-warrior-themes.html


This is the same artist that we all have associated with YST at one time or another but agreed it was a different artist.

« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 12:50:02 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 444


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 03:35:19 pm »

Hi Cathy,

I think you are right about George's bottle being by the same artist. The way the vegetation is rendered is quite unique and the horses tack is similar in being rendered in a single line.

YST and what seems to be considered a student of his render the horse tack with two separate lines not a single one.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 05:48:27 pm »

Wink

Yes, lots of similarities between those two bottles - hopefully one day we can find one signed!

I really would not be surprised if the artist turns out to be a well known one. Of the different versions of the bottles often wrongly attributed to YST, it's my personal opinion that this one is the best artist.
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
bokaba
Full Member
***
Posts: 145



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 06:34:35 pm »

George and Pat,

What do you think about the possibility of Tang Zichuan?
Report Spam   Logged

Brian
Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3394


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 08:36:19 pm »

Somewhere here I have a signed Tang zichuan warrior bottle. I personally don't think this is by him.
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 09:36:10 pm »

I think that's a good guess because the style is similar, but there are major differences. Those bottles always seem to have dots as grass - Tang Zichuan's landscapes are very minimalist and he almost always uses a burnt sienna signature color that makes his work very distinctive.

I have a Tang Zichuan fighting scene as reference. There are some similarities I would agree but sadly not by Zichuan imo.

Btw, is that a severed head in the horse pouch on my bottle?! hahaha Wink


 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 09:38:33 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
bokaba
Full Member
***
Posts: 145



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2017, 10:49:10 pm »

I agree that Tang Zichuan bottles, at least his warrior scenes, have stronger blacks and perhaps better painted horses. This bottle must have been painted by a student of YST then, though well-painted compared to many student type bottles. It is very similar to the rectangular bottle I once owned.


* 52144943_1_x.jpg (59.46 KB, 345x701 - viewed 27 times.)

* 52144943_2_x.jpg (59.24 KB, 319x695 - viewed 22 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Brian
cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 12:04:02 am »

Wow - exact same scene on this bottle too. This artist really favored the bluish purple color it seems.
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
bokaba
Full Member
***
Posts: 145



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 01:09:12 am »

The identity of this third artist is perplexing. I have seen a number of similar bottles sold at auctions in the last 10 years and none of them are signed, but the style is consistent.

This is a journal article (originally posted by YT) showing a similar design and similar horses attributed to YST. Is it possible these bottles are painted by YST but unsigned?


* index.php.jpg (68.5 KB, 700x525 - viewed 13 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Brian
Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3394


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 01:22:42 am »

Hello Brian

There are 3 things that make me not subscribe to that thought:

1.  The original YST actually started out in smaller bottles, and his calligraphy (and painting style ) was more than ok, although sometimes more like caricature.
2.  Once he did move into the larger bottles, his calligraphy was still ok, but rougher and bigger/fatter. Not sure if he was getting eye-sight issues or not
3.  The colors on these bottles (especially the dark blues and the brownish hues) are not typical of his style. 

I am interested to see what the others have to say, but I think we are still dealing with a student or an unknown (as of yet) artist.

Hi Cathy

I really like your warrior scene by Tang Zichuan, and yes it seems to be a severed head... lol...
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 03:24:49 am by Pat - 查尚杰 » Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8360



View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 02:12:23 am »

Brian

There are 3 things that make me not subscribe to that thought:

1.  The original YST actually started out in smaller bottles, and his calligraphy (and painting style ) was more than ok, although sometimes more like caricature.
2.  Once he did move into the larger bottles, his calligraphy was still ok, but rougher and bigger/fatter. Not sure if he was getting eye-sight issues or not
3.  The colors on these bottles (especially the dark blues and the brownish hues) are not typical of his style. 

I am interested to see what the others have to say, but I think we are still dealing with a student or an unknown (as of yet) artist.

I agree with all of the above Pat..
Report Spam   Logged

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 03:11:09 pm »

Quote
I really like your warrior scene by Tang Zichuan, and yes it seems to be a severed head... lol...

hahaha thanks Pat! Makes me love it all the more! And excellent points about YST.

Brian, I think articles like that one just add to the confusion of which bottles were actually done by YST. 
I still think it's a third unknown artist. Imo a great deal of the battle scenes no one could attribute just fell under the YST umbrella.

Looking at more of these by the third unknown artist, I'm seeing the same scene repeated over and over again. That and the lack of calligraphy is making me think this was a talented apprentice. 

Good eye Adrian - catching the reins difference.
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
AntPeople
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 796



View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 06:05:30 pm »

IMO.....I always think that YST bottles are really nice and animated.... but they got confused with many bottles from other lesser painters and probably his own students that uses his name or a name that sounds the same as his......

BTW..... Cathy... your Tang ZiChuan bottle is really nice !!

Pin
Report Spam   Logged

五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

cshapiro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 590



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 01:24:50 am »

Thank you Pin!  Grin Grin Grin
Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal