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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 07:12:50 pm
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Mongolian Horn Bottle

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Author Topic: Mongolian Horn Bottle  (Read 1243 times)
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« on: March 31, 2017, 06:09:26 am »

Hi All,

I bought this bottle early on when I began collecting bottles. I was attempting to collect a sample of a horn bottle and this one caught my eye. The silver filigree work seemed out of place on what was held out to be a horn bottle. Turquoise, coral and ruby colored cabochons turned up the volume. The base has an engraved marking that seems to be a double vajra, a Buddhist symbol? Sorry about the quality of the base picture, it's the best I can do. It is 3 inches tall including the stopper. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I have wanted to clean the silver filigree. Should I do so, or leave it alone?

Best to All,

Toni-Lee


* rsz_dsc07243.jpg (258.82 KB, 1097x1495 - viewed 27 times.)

* rsz_dsc07242.jpg (255.6 KB, 1168x1446 - viewed 14 times.)

* rsz_dsc07247.jpg (53.48 KB, 693x652 - viewed 15 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 08:28:43 am »

I would not clean it...

Fun bottle...  !
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 05:52:43 pm »

Dear Toni-Lee,

     I agree with George.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 07:31:59 am »

Hi Toni-Lee,

Yes, i agree with the others - don't clean it.

When I was in Ulaanbaatar a few years ago there were plenty of snuff bottles in the local shops because the Mongolians are avid snuff takers, and still use snuff bottles to carry it in. I didn't see any of the type we Western snuff bottle collectors call Mongolian bottles. I was curious about this so I described to a local what I was looking for. He said, 'I know what you mean. We call those Tibetan snuff bottles.'
Why so? The reply: 'Because they come from Tibet!'   Cool

Tom
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 12:43:39 pm »

Dear all,
I thought that all the bottles with metal mountings and stone beads where Tibetan, I would have called this bottle Tibetan if mine.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 12:58:50 pm »

Dear Tom,

     I learned to call these 'Mongolian' bottles, and assumed they were made in Mongolia.
I have learned something new today. Thank you.
This is like, "What do the Danish call the pastry we refer to as a 'danish'?  Shocked Roll Eyes Grin
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 02:05:50 pm »

Hi Joey, Giovanni, Tom and George,

Thank you for your information and thoughts. When it was purchased, it was dubbed "Mongolian", but after hearing your comments perhaps it was made in Tibet. I'm going to retitle it as Tibetan.

Tom, thanks for letting me know the Mongolians were avid snuff users. It's one of those curious bottles that have little worth, but has it's own little story from that part of the world.

Best,

Toni-Lee
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 09:24:40 pm »


     I learned to call these 'Mongolian' bottles, and assumed they were made in Mongolia.
I have learned something new today. Thank you.
This is like, "What do the Danish call the pastry we refer to as a 'danish'?  Shocked Roll Eyes Grin


Dear Joey,

Great minds think alike! I was going to mention the parallel with 'Danish pastries', but didn't want to 'over-verbalize' my reply to Toni-Lee. However, since you brought it up, and for the benefit of those who don't know the anecdote....

    The whole world knows those familiar flat pastries as 'Danish'. But the Danish call them 'Viennois'. Why is this? For the answer, you need to go back to the days of the Austro-Hungarian empire, when the Hapsburgs controlled most of Central and Southern Europe. The seat of that power lay in Vienna.
    A young Danish cook was working in the Imperial kitchens, apprenticed to the sous-chef. Having been assigned the task of preparing the batter mix for one of the Emperor's favourite desserts, he inadvertently missed out one essential ingredient needed to make the pastries rise when baked.
    The mistake only became apparent when the pastries came out of the oven. By then it was too late to make a fresh batch, so their was no choice but to serve the 'flat' pastries, which the sous-chef tried to rescue by topping with some preserved fruit.
    To everyone's surprise and relief the Emperor loved the novelty. The new recipe caught on and spread across Europe, known as a 'Danish'. Except in Denmark, where the people preferred not to be reminded of the mistake made by one of their own, so instead called it a Viennese pastry, or Viennois.

Tom       
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 09:30:36 pm »


Tom, thanks for letting me know the Mongolians were avid snuff users. It's one of those curious bottles that have little worth, but has it's own little story from that part of the world.


Hi Toni-Lee,

They still ARE avid snuff users. As far as I know, Mongolia is the last place in the world still making snuff bottles for daily use.

BTW, most dealers and auction house catalogs still refer to these bottles as Mongolian, hence the reason yours was dubbed so.

Tom
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 06:40:36 am »

Dear Tom,

      Thank you for helping me learn about the 'Danish/Viennois' conundrum... Roll Eyes Grin  Whatever the source,
I love them.
 
      I understood that most modern Mongolian bottles are made in China, near Shanghai, and only decorated in Mongolia.  Is this not the case?
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 07:10:09 am »


      I understood that most modern Mongolian bottles are made in China, near Shanghai, and only decorated in Mongolia.  Is this not the case?


Dear Joey,

When I visited Mongolia in 2005, 2006 and 2007 I was told there were only a couple of 'master carvers' left, who were in high demand for commissioned bottles, and that the ready made ones seen for sale in shops came from China, with only the characteristic tall stoppers added locally.

I recently came across a YouTube video link, which showed a Mongolian lapidary carving and hollowing bottles in UB (Ulaanbaatar), and being interviewed. Whether he was one of the 'masters' or not I couldn't tell, because the commentary was entirely in Mongolian. 

Best,
Tom
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 07:27:26 am »

Dear Tom and Joey,

Thank's for your thoughts, the Danish story was great. I must say I was pleasantly surprised that the Mongolian people still use snuff and the sharing and passing around of SB is part of their culture. Your information sparked curiosity on my part and I went back on the forum and found a thread in June of 2011. Everyone is so generous with sharing information. Thank you one and all.

The engraved symbol on the bottom of the bottle, seems to be a tie to Tibetan Buddhism. Another reason that I like the bottle.

Best,

Toni-Lee
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 09:07:30 am »

Hi,

So, to show my ignorance yet again, I have to ask, what does a traditional Mongolian bottle actually look like? Is it simply a bottle with a tall stopper?

Cheers,


Rheuben


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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 12:02:31 pm »


Rheuben,

Tom is the collector and greatest source of Monogolian snuff bottle information.  So he can likely provided more back reference information off the top of his head.  Here though is a link and some examples provide by Tom in October of 2013;

Quote
Here is a link to a facebook site with some very interesting Mongolian bottles:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D0%A5%D3%A9%D3%A9%D1%80%D3%A9%D0%B3-huurug-/336223039762486

Remember, the Mongolians still actively take snuff, and do USE these bottles.


Charll
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 03:36:38 pm »

Dear Charll  (and Rheuben, et al!),

     Those are MODERN 'Mongolian' bottles.
Toni-Lee's example above, is quite a good example of an antique bottle.
They tend to have silver fittings, often inset with tiny coral and/or turquoise and/or lapis lazuli beads framed in filigree wire, and often with a matching silver stopper, also inset.
You will also find examples with an inset panel front and reverse, with the rest of the bottle in silver.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 12:00:46 pm »

Charll and Joey,

Thanks for the information, I think I get it!  I'm interested that people in Mongolia still
use their bottles to take snuff, and some socially.  It reminds me of people from South America who drink mate'.
They drink the yierba mate' in a decorative gourd with the use of a filtered straw called a bombilla.  When pobladores, or sheep farmers from the isolated region of Patagonia  encounter someone, they offer them "mate'". And when there is a large group, they will sit in a circle and drink the hot tea out of the mate' gourd passing it to the person on their left.

Cheers,

Rheuben.
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2017, 04:22:07 pm »


Dear Joey,
 
I recently came across a YouTube video link, which showed a Mongolian lapidary carving and hollowing bottles in UB (Ulaanbaatar), and being interviewed. Whether he was one of the 'masters' or not I couldn't tell, because the commentary was entirely in Mongolian. 

Best,
Tom

And that's your excuse, that you don't understand Mongolian?! For Shame! Shocked Roll Eyes Grin

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2017, 09:05:21 am »

Toni-Lee,

I want to share one, kind of similar to your nice old "Tibetan" bottle.


Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender tibetan horn 1.jpg (100.06 KB, 480x640 - viewed 8 times.)

* FullSizeRender tibetan horn 2.jpg (88.88 KB, 480x640 - viewed 5 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2017, 09:51:01 am »

Dear Rube,

     KIND of similar?! To me it looks almost identical.
It's still hard for me to change my ingrained 'knowledge' that this type is 'Mongolian', even though I trust Tom's info that it is actually Tibetan in manufacture.

     Best,
Joey
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2017, 10:51:43 pm »


It's still hard for me to change my ingrained 'knowledge' that this type is 'Mongolian', even though I trust Tom's info that it is actually Tibetan in manufacture.


Dear Joey,

That snippet of information came from Mongolians I met when visiting Ulaanbaatar a few years ago. In response to my asking why, amongst all the snuff bottles I saw, there were no bottles of the type Rube just posted, the unequivocal response was "because they come from Tibet, not Mongolia!"

Best,
Tom
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