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2 plain bottles, are they too plain ?

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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2017, 12:33:32 pm »

Dear Pat,

    Wonderful references! Thank you!
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2017, 02:31:39 pm »

Thanks for all the links Pat, fascinating to think glass vessels may have been turned on a lathe.

I've got so much information on Chinese glass running around in my head now that I might need a bit of a lie down.

I don't agree with one of the links referring to glass as regarded as a lowly material. The gifts of glass given to various Emperors were held in high regard as were all manner of glass objects that were imported to China. The fact glass was used as a substitute for jade in burial rituals and was used in various religious rituals also suggests it was held in high regard.

I have seen various references to the low quality of early Chinese glass at different times especially with reference to it being brittle. One of your links also mentions that the composition of early glass made it hard to work. Perhaps these factors added to making it less useful both in terms of it's use and problems in manufacture when compared to china which offered lots of advantages over glass.

The more I read the more I see a fractured history of Chinese glass making that seems to have been reliant on outside influences to develop it at various times in history. The fact China repeatedly closed itself off to the rest of the world didn't help along with various internal wars causing upheaval in all aspects of life.

It seems a number of factors caused the greatest advances in Chinese glass manufacture in the Kang Xi era that happily coincided with the snuff bottle period.

Regards, Adrian.


 
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« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2017, 05:57:08 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     Where did you get the idea that glass was used in place of Jade in burial rituals?
If it came from YAJI.com, believe me it is false.
I seriously doubt it.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2017, 06:59:32 pm »

Dear Joey,

It is referred to in two books I have and relates to articles found at burial sites. Jade cicadas (placed on the tongue of the dead), jade pigs and jade sword furniture are some of the items replicated in glass that have been unearthed from burial chambers. They seem to date from the Han period. As jade was buried with the dead as it was believed to preserve the body for it's journey to it's afterlife the use of glass instead of jade is consistent with the Chinese seeing glass as having some of the properties of jade. Or relatives didn't like the dead person and didn't want to pay for real jade.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2017, 03:21:48 pm »

Dear Adrian,

      Thank you, I did not know that. What are the titles of the books, and their authors? I had heard this from a certain UK dealer whose veracity I do not rely on. But if your books are serious sources, it might force me to believe, against my will.  Shocked Roll Eyes Grin

Best,
Joey
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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2017, 04:28:33 pm »

I do not mean to get to far off track..

Part of the story from sending this 18th Guyue Xuan to Sotheby's for a look, in the end resulted with them telling me that new evidence had recently surfaced leaving the appraiser to believe that these are not 18th glass shops. What ever information she was referencing left her insistent upon dating mine Early 19th.

When I declined to list it like that, I also asked what new reference they were using.. She would not tell me..

I wonder if some of these references like, "Snuff Bottles in the Qing Dynasty" that tells about newly discovered enamel painters, or others references mentioned above by Adrian were the source for Sotheby's.

Not saying it is so, but maybe references like Mysteries of the Ancient Moon, and part or all of the 18th century dating within will somehow turn out to be wrong ??

I know she was familiar with Hugh's information, but she would not go with it.. At least in my bottles case , which did fit in with the Mysteries of the Ancient Moon, and Guyue Xuan group of bottles..
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« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2017, 05:38:21 pm »

Dear Adrian, Joey, George.
I would just say that not always what is found in books must be taken as pure gold.
Unfortunately, many Authors often omits the simple premise “I think”, or “this may indicate” etc. They just relate a theory or a supposition as a proved fact.
This is particularly dangerous in the Chinese Art field, because of the lack of knowledge, because of translation and interpretation problems. Not last, also the updating of the book, because knowledges changes as new information is found.
Dear George, if they did refuse to tell you the source of information, I would take that as an excuse. Why should them keep that secret? I know for my experience that many times they take some silly excuse for refusing an object not belonging from a known collection or because they are not totally convinced.  I had some really ridiculous excuses from them.
As for the Mysteries of the Ancient Moon, dear George, I did not read all the text yet, but in the first page, for example, he says: “… the use of the term “five colors” to designate famille-rose enamels is so commonplace in the Imperial records and other later Qing publications, ….”. That is not correct. Five colors is wucai and it is related to the ware of the late Ming and early Qing periods. Famille rose was known in China as ruancai (soft colors) during Yongzheng and as yangcai (foreign colors) during Qianlong. Later on, there is a further distinction between fencai (powder colors) for famille rose on white background and falangcai for famille rose on colored background (see Gotheborg's dictionary).
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2017, 06:21:41 pm »

Dear Joey,

The books were;

Pure Brightness Shines Everywhere. The Glass of China. Emily Byrne Curtis. 2004

Chinese Art. Textiles, Glass and painting on glass, Carving in Ivory and Rhinoceros Horn, Carvings in Hardstones, Snuff Bottles, Inkcakes and Inkstones. R Soames Jenyns. 3rd edition. 1981 (1st edition 1965).

The Pure brightness book is described as "the first book to draw on major recent archival discoveries" and Snuff Bottles of the Qing Dynasty, which is more recent, refers to archival discoveries. The Chinese Art book refers to the fact there are all these archived records and that they should bring forward a lot of information which seems to be the case.

What interests me is that specific references are made to snuff bottles being ordered on a given date, as in day, month and year because it is drawn from records taken at the time. While there aren't a great many orders listed, it seems as more of these archives are worked through then a pretty accurate picture of actual orders and production starting from the Yongzheng period will be available.

An example is I have Arts of Asia, volume 26, number 5 from 1996 with snuff bottles of Emperor Qianlong, one pictured and described is a carved ivory crane snuff bottle. It is also in the Snuff bottles of the Qiang Dynasty and dated to 1753 as it's production is recorded in the file of the Royal Workshop.

Regards, Adrian. 

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« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2017, 08:18:09 pm »


Dear George, if they did refuse to tell you the source of information, I would take that as an excuse. Why should them keep that secret? I know for my experience that many times they take some silly excuse for refusing an object not belonging from a known collection or because they are not totally convinced.  I had some really ridiculous excuses from them.

That naturally would be the first thing one would think.. But in this case, we communicated many times, both via email, and phone.. It was well understood that so long as it was correct once they had it in hand, that they would list it accordingly.. Hard to imagine the appraiser, after plenty of well understood emails, and phone calls would let me send it with a motivation for pre-planned rejection and re-labelling a different century once it arrived. 

I can not come up with any other thing though.. Like you it appears an excuse. But hard to make sense of it..

 
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« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2017, 08:02:54 am »

Dear Adrian,

       I must say, I'd accept EB Curtis' research, and R. Soames Jenyns is considered even more respected.
Thank you.
Joey


Dear Joey,

The books were;

Pure Brightness Shines Everywhere. The Glass of China. Emily Byrne Curtis. 2004

Chinese Art. Textiles, Glass and painting on glass, Carving in Ivory and Rhinoceros Horn, Carvings in Hardstones, Snuff Bottles, Inkcakes and Inkstones. R Soames Jenyns. 3rd edition. 1981 (1st edition 1965).

The Pure brightness book is described as "the first book to draw on major recent archival discoveries" and Snuff Bottles of the Qing Dynasty, which is more recent, refers to archival discoveries. The Chinese Art book refers to the fact there are all these archived records and that they should bring forward a lot of information which seems to be the case.

What interests me is that specific references are made to snuff bottles being ordered on a given date, as in day, month and year because it is drawn from records taken at the time. While there aren't a great many orders listed, it seems as more of these archives are worked through then a pretty accurate picture of actual orders and production starting from the Yongzheng period will be available.

An example is I have Arts of Asia, volume 26, number 5 from 1996 with snuff bottles of Emperor Qianlong, one pictured and described is a carved ivory crane snuff bottle. It is also in the Snuff bottles of the Qiang Dynasty and dated to 1753 as it's production is recorded in the file of the Royal Workshop.

Regards, Adrian. 


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« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2017, 11:27:10 am »

Dear Joey,

Both books seem very well researched and I have found them very informative and interesting.

Bob Stevens also mentions early glass copies of ritual jades, mainly in the form of cicadas and "pi", circular heavenly symbols. He also talks of glass being regarded like a semi precious stone and worked by lapidary methods. He also mentions differing opinions that earlier glass snuff bottles were blown and later ones carved. This would fit with what I was saying in there being a period around 1760 where the Imperial Glassworks seemed to have been forced somewhat to carve glass bottles.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2017, 01:00:55 pm »

Dear Adrian,
 
     Thank you. you've helped me learn new info. Incidentally with the Qing Dynasty reign names, one writes them first before the title (ie., the Qianlong Emperor is correct; not Emperor Qianlong; Qianlong is not his name, it's his reign title name. His name before taking the Dragon Throne was Aisin Gioro Hongli. Aisin Gioro  was the name of the reigning Manchu clan; and Hongli his personal name. etc.).
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2017, 02:19:44 pm »

This has been an outstanding thread... !
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« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2017, 05:48:16 pm »

I've just been reading "An overview of Qiang glass snuff bottle production" by Hugh Moss where he mentions a new colour glass being introduced in 1727 of "transparent yellow glass, very much like honey amber" which is a very good match for mine in colour although the shape of his example is different. I still prefer "the colour of snow you mustn't eat".

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2017, 11:25:02 pm »

Hi Adrian,

If the glass is transparent, then honey amber is a good description. If opaque or translucent then your last description is a better one.   Wink

Tom

PS: Qiang glass or Qing?
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« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2017, 12:27:58 am »

Hi Tom,

As it's transparent I will have to reluctantly concede and go with honey amber.

Qing not Qiang.

One of my earlier posts in this thread was about the lack of glass blowers for a period starting 1760 and going on until sometime in the Jiaqing period (1796-1820). In "An overview of Qing glass snuff bottle production" it mentions a 1799 list of workers at the Imperial glassworks saying apart from the glass blowers from Boshan there were 34 other artisans among who were jade workers (carvers and polishers), throwers, builders, scrapers, carpenters, filers and sula attendants (odd job men). The throwers, scrapers and filers worked with traditional lapidary tools to finish glass products.

There are also a few mentions of glass bottles being mould blown, some octagonal faceted ones for example. I have googled mould blown glass techniques and found videos of mould blowing but can't cut and paste them at present but it's food for thought in terms of how many bottles may have been mould blown and finished by polishers, may be more than we realise.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2017, 01:40:24 am »

Hi Tom,

As it's transparent I will have to reluctantly concede and go with honey amber.

Qing not Qiang.

One of my earlier posts in this thread was about the lack of glass blowers for a period starting 1760 and going on until sometime in the Jiaqing period (1796-1820). In "An overview of Qing glass snuff bottle production" it mentions a 1799 list of workers at the Imperial glassworks saying apart from the glass blowers from Boshan there were 34 other artisans among who were jade workers (carvers and polishers), throwers, builders, scrapers, carpenters, filers and sula attendants (odd job men). The throwers, scrapers and filers worked with traditional lapidary tools to finish glass products.


I understand there is an article within the Spring 2004 journal..

Can I get one of our society members to order a copy for me ?  Much cheaper, and I will send the money right away Smiley

http://www.snuffbottle.org/en/journals/spring2004journal.html
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« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2017, 06:10:54 am »

Happily, George. Before I do, anyone else want a copy while I'm ordering?
I will arrange to get them sent to you, George; if you are willing to send onward.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2017, 06:13:20 am »

Dear Adrian,

     "I still prefer "the colour of snow you mustn't eat".
Regards, Adrian."
    I would capitalise the 'MUSTN'T'!  Roll Eyes Grin

Incidentally, you do know that you can correct mistakes in your own posts? (Qing rather than Qiang)...
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2017, 10:59:19 am »

Happily, George. Before I do, anyone else want a copy while I'm ordering?
I will arrange to get them sent to you, George; if you are willing to send onward.
Best,
Joey

Yes, happily send copies forward.. Thank you so much Joey .. !
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