General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Steven shared this beautiful Ma Shaoxian bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2017, 07:49:19 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Rotten Leaf Agate

Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Rotten Leaf Agate  (Read 247 times)
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« on: February 28, 2017, 08:48:44 am »

From the same deceased estate as my macaroni agate bottle, described as moss agate but there may be a better way of describing it.

Of square, flattened form with a slight slope to the shoulders and well rounded sides. Raised flat foot. Well hollowed. Stained coral coloured bone stopper with a green stained bone collar. 19th Century ?

I could only find one example of this shape in my books which was a glass bottle imitating jade and one on ebay which is described as jade and with an optimistic 4,000 price.

Regards, Adrian.


* P2280515.jpg (56.66 KB, 387x600 - viewed 19 times.)

* P2280517.jpg (43.44 KB, 399x600 - viewed 10 times.)

* P2280516.jpg (39.01 KB, 335x600 - viewed 3 times.)

* P2280518.jpg (68.55 KB, 800x532 - viewed 8 times.)

* P2280519.jpg (76.8 KB, 800x544 - viewed 4 times.)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:42:55 pm by forestman » Report Spam   Logged

Social Buttons

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 09:48:27 am »

Hi Adrian,

You don't mention the size, but I'd guess it is not large, say around 5 cm tall?

One of the first snuff bottles I ever bought back in 1972 is of similar overall appearance, except that the top/bottom view is rectilinear rather than oval. But mouth, neck and raised foot are almost the same. I think I once posted it on the forum, so will have to locate it, and give you the link.

A well known dealer who saw it in 1978 suggested it was an early bottle from the period 1720-1780. I knew nothing of dating back then, but would now give it a much more conservative range of 1820-1900, and apply the same to yours.

I used to refer to mine as 'tortoise shell agate'. A bit of an affectation perhaps, but it does remind me of that material. This stone was popularly called shadow agate by snuff bottle collectors for many years. I believe the more correct term nowadays would be 'dendritic chalcedony'. 

Either way, you have a delightful bottle! And I like the stopper too!

Tom
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:25:23 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10391



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 10:10:31 am »

Beautiful bottle Adrian !

I like Tom's description of 'tortoise shell agate'.. Not so sure I would put this in the dendritic category though Tom.. Regardless, a real beautiful bottle and congratulations !

Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 10:21:10 am »

George,

You are right - it doesn't have those characteristic fern-like markings one associates with dendritic.

Adrian, I did a search, but couldn't locate that post of mine. So here are a couple of shots of the bottle I mean. I think yours is nicer to handle though, because of its softer corners.


* Q009.1a-lo.jpg (276.03 KB, 600x750 - viewed 13 times.)

* Q009.1d-lo.jpg (259.77 KB, 600x750 - viewed 4 times.)

* Q009.1f-lo.jpg (196.84 KB, 600x480 - viewed 5 times.)

* Q009.1g-lo.jpg (196.06 KB, 600x480 - viewed 3 times.)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:23:55 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 10:26:11 am »

Hi Tom,

Sorry, I must get used to adding the size, just under 6 cm. I rarely look when bidding at auction and have been surprised to find how small some bottles are, 3 little ones have been added of late.

I knew macaroni agate was considered a dendritic chalcedony but hadn't noted that moss agate (in all it's various forms) was included as well.

The dating of the glass bottle by Hugh Moss was 1730-1850 but it feels at the newer end to me, something in the shape and height of the neck I think ! In the same book is another bottle with similar inclusions that he gives as "Chalcedony" but the inclusions are much smaller.

I can understand tortoise shell agate, I'm regretting not bidding higher on a bottle recently that had similar inclusions as well as some "thumb print" inclusions and the whole of that had a tortoise shell feel to it.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 10:32:02 am »


The dating of the glass bottle by Hugh Moss was 1730-1850 but it feels at the newer end to me, something in the shape and height of the neck I think ! In the same book is another bottle with similar inclusions that he gives as "Chalcedony" but the inclusions are much smaller.


Adrian,

To which book are you referring?

Thanks for info on the size - actually taller than I'd have thought. Mine is 5.2 cm high.

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 11:57:47 am »

Tom and George,

Thank you both for your comments by the way.

Tom,

The book is not a Hugh Moss one, I must have been thinking moss agate-Hugh Moss, it's Robert Hall, Chinese Snuff Bottles. The glass bottle on page 72 and the chalcedony one on page 28. The bottle you posted has a smoky feel which I associate with tortoise shell whereas the chalcedony one and mine have a definition to the inclusions, they feel a bit like a well rotted leaf that has become fossilised.

Regards, Adrian. 
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Posts: 315


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 12:17:28 pm »

Adrian,

That's a sweet bottle!

Cheers,

Rheuben.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3394


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 06:08:10 pm »

Adrian and Tom

Very nice agate bottles ! Thanks for sharing them. Their small sizes really makes one appreciate the hard work going into carving them, let alone imaging what to do with the crude stone before doing anything.

I particularly like the shape of these bottles .

Tom

You have seen one of mine that is similar in shape. Can't put my hands on the pictures for the moment .
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 09:37:27 pm »


The book is not a Hugh Moss one, I must have been thinking moss agate-Hugh Moss, it's Robert Hall, Chinese Snuff Bottles. The glass bottle on page 72 and the chalcedony one on page 28. The bottle you posted has a smoky feel which I associate with tortoise shell whereas the chalcedony one and mine have a definition to the inclusions, they feel a bit like a well rotted leaf that has become fossilised.
 

Adrian,

Which Robert Hall book? There are at least 17 books/catalogues by him with the same title, of which I have around 12. He publishes one a year.

How uncanny that you referred to the inclusions being like a rotted leaf. That's exactly what I thought, but felt reluctant to say so in my post!

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2017, 08:21:56 am »

Hi Tom,

I assume it's the first one as my other Hall book is Chinese Snuff Bottles II. The one I refer to is a catalogue from his exhibition in 1987.

If you can have Moss Agate because it looks like moss then Rotten Leaf Agate seems fine by me and I hope 28/2/2017 can be noted as the date this new description came into use.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2017, 11:40:46 am »

Hi Adrian,

OK, thanks. I pulled my copy off the shelf, and have looked up the two references you mentioned.

Can we officially abbreviate Rotten Leaf Agate to RLA...?
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2017, 02:42:10 pm »

Hi Tom,

I think in the relaxed atmosphere of the forum RLA would be fine but I might email Christie's, Robert Hall etc with the suggestion that Rotten Leaf Agate becomes an accepted term in the Snuff Bottle world  Smiley

Regards, Adrian. 
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8467


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 04:10:13 pm »

Dear Adrian, Tom, et al,

     Interesting name for it. Nice bottle.
I'd give it a dating of ca.1830-1900.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:24:20 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 08:45:27 pm »


Interesting name for it. Nice bottle.
i'd give it a dating of ca.1830-1900.


And I had given it 1820-1900. Close enough for a consensus....!   Wink
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3394


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 08:49:58 pm »

After all, what's 10 years in the life of a snuff bottle ?   Grin
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 468


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2017, 03:20:04 am »

I'll split the difference and give it 1825-1900 in my notes  Undecided
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5034



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2017, 04:26:06 am »

Should you add the month too?
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal