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Can someone please translate the script on this spoon ?

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George
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« on: February 23, 2017, 01:22:25 pm »

Did not really bid on this for the bottle, but for the spoon..

Can someone tell me what the spoon reads ?



* spoon.jpg (28.34 KB, 500x385 - viewed 59 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2017, 05:28:34 pm »

Hi George,

It's written there pure handmade silver spoon.

Best,
Samson
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2017, 02:31:21 am »

Hi George,

It's written there pure handmade silver spoon.

Best,
Samson

That is a little odd..  I was expecting a makers mark or something similar..

Thank you Samson  Smiley
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2017, 05:45:26 am »

Dear George,
 
     Not odd at all, considering the Chinese (and Jewish!) mind-set, and need to label everything.

     To give an example, Rick and I were both admiring the same green & white carved Jadeite bottle in a dealer's booth at the ICSBS 1982 NYC convention.  On one side it had dragon & sun,  the reverse with the moon and phoenix , and was US$1400 at the time.

     Dated 19th C., it seemed fine, but someone had inscribed the character for sun (ri) on the sun, and the character for moon (yue) on the moon. I thought that someone had 'doctored' it. I had 'first refusal', but didn't want it because of the 2 inscribed characters. I think Rick bought it, but am not sure.

     It turns out that it was genuine, inscriptions and all!
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2017, 01:08:06 pm »

Dear Joey-

Yes, I did buy that bottle from Dorothea Esty's daughter.  However; there was no dragon, there was a phoenix.  There was also a raised inscription which translated to "Lovely phoenix gazing at the sun".  It was lovely mottled green and white jade with one spot of yellow jade carved as the sun. 

I'm always amazed at your memory for bottles, especially ones seen years and years ago!  I haven't thought of that bottle in ages but it was lovely.  I hope whoever now possesses it is enjoying it. 

Best wishes, Rick
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2017, 04:28:02 pm »

Dear Rick,
 
      I stand corrected, re. lack of dragon. But I do remember that the sun had the character 'ri' and the moon the character 'yue'. You told me it was genuine and early-mid 19th C., and you were right, of course.
Remember when we would go to the Peacock Alley Bar in the Waldorf (the convention venue) for drinks after 'a hard day's
slog' at museums and at the Sotheby's auction where Eric Young bought 90% of the Bob Stevens sale.
  #4? #5? We were both at Bob Stevens #1, in Honolulu, Nov.1981; Stevens #2 was in NYC in Mar. (10.Mar.1982, as I recall); Stevens #3 was in NYC in June, 1982; I don't remember if the Oct. sale was Stevens #4, or if there was a Sept. Stevens sale, and at the convention was Stevens #5.

    I do remember that he did not bid against us (you, me, Virginia Rice and the late Bill Griswold), and that he was going to take the bus from Sotheby's on York Ave. back to the Waldorf with 4 Sotheby's 'carry bags', till I treated him to a taxi ride.

    And I will NEVER forget Agatha Aronson's strapless shocking pink gown with the really low decolletage, which matched the tablecloths and napkins  of the final banquet, and how Eric could not take his eyes off Agatha's impressive bosom, and how she almost pulled the whole tablesetting off our table, mistaking the tablecloth for her matching shawl when she went to 'powder her nose'!
 
  Oh, and how the late Eddie Dwyer was upset, after he'd spent US$6,000 on a Daoguang Imperial prince's robe and all the trimmings, and I 'stole the show', when I attended in a Mao uniform I'd bought in the Friendship Store in Singapore for under US$20 - a zhongshan jacket and matching trousers in genuine blue-gray polyester, a pair of tai chi shoes, a cap with a red star, a PRC flag, and a copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book!

Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2017, 08:39:05 am »

Dear Joey-

That was an amazing convention and your memories awakened memories of my own.  I do remember Eric Young not not bid against us deliberately.  He was being very gentlemanly but, of course, he managed to garner a great many bottles anyway.

One of my fondest memories was when we were on the bus which stopped to load convention participants and you jumped off and returned with an armload of hot dogs from a street vendor.  We were all a tad peaky from hunger and you fed us with just the right thing to get us through till the next meal.  You always seem to hit just the right cord and at the right moment!

Poor Eddie Dwyer was crestfallen when you appeared as a Mao soldier at the private party.  No one was paying him his due attention, they were all enthralled with your ingenuity in coming up with a costume no one else had EVER thought of wearing.  It was a real coup on your part and Eddie fumed for hours about it.  I'm not sure he ever forgave you for "one upping" him but it was a great idea and a first for the convention.  I think he even carried his pique over to the Toronto convention (remember that?).

So many wonderful memories and thank you for bringing them back.

One of the bottles I bought at the Sotheby auction was the Wolferz bottle (#83 in your first catalogue).  It will always be one of my favorites.  The side with the cricket among the foliage is done with such wonderful delicate colors and so well executed it remains in my mind to this day and I am delighted that it is now yours to enjoy.  When a special bottle gets passed on to a friend to enjoy it's life as an object of joy continues.  It, and you, could ask no more.

Best wishes, and thanks, Rick
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2017, 10:02:30 am »

Dear Rick,

     I'd forgotten about the hotdogs! I was going to get 2 or 3 for myself, and asked who wanted. I think I got 10 or 12, but at US$1.50 or US$2.00 each at the time, not a serious drain on the exchequer!  Cheesy Shocked Roll Eyes
 I learned in the army in Israel - when you have something hot in you, you can face most things.

    Do you remember the lecture by Prof. Schuyler Cammann at the Newark Museum? He was the first to deny that the Shunzhi-marked bronze bottles were genuine, attributing them to the late 19th C.
Hugh Moss really mocked him as an old 'fuddy duddy', but he was honest and should have been listened to.

    Actually, re.Eddy Dwyer; he tried to screw me in 1984 at the ICSBS LA convention by spreading a rumour that I was trying to 'shill' a 'fake' Wang Xisan bottle as genuine.  Of course, I was simply being honest, even though I wanted the bottle (from Allie McReynolds Sotheby's LA Sale, 31.Oct.1981, lot 181;#94 in my 1987 catalogue; and A-14 in "Worlds"), and, 'thanks' to Eddy, got it for US$1,100.

     And then, while Eddy was laughing how I'd been "hoist with my own petard", Master Wang Xisan came over and collected the bottle and returned it the next day, with the new inscription he'd added: "Autumn month, jiazi (1984), Xisan painted". I was especially honoured, since he wrote 'Xisan' and not 'Wang Xisan'; this connotes friendship and informality, between the writer and the recipient.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 03:45:49 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 10:50:29 am »

Dear Joey-

I do remember Prof Cammann's lecture and, thankfully, it started me thinking about the bronze bottles.  the whole matter was so strange, no previous documented evidence, nothing to suggest that they were genuine EXCEPT dealers promotion of them.  A collector my my acquaintance (you know the fool from M------) paid a lot of money for one found in Australia.  I was asked what I thought of it and said I thought it was another bottle made for the collector market, that I agreed with Prof. Cammann and Emily B. Curtis that they were fakes.  Needless to say, that went over like a "lead balloon".  I was told that a major auction house and several dealers all agreed it was genuine and probably the best of that group.  It may have been the best of the lot but that still doesn't make in genuine.  Finally, several years later, this collector sent me a photostat of an article in the Journal of ICSBS by a Chinese author who said they were fakes and admitted that I was correct in my belief.  Of course, I wasn't the one who was out thousands of dollars.

Over many years, we have both come in contact with numerous dealers.  The majority I feel are honest but they are running a commercial enterprise.  Some do not do their diligent research while others have years and years of experience to fall back upon when judging a bottle.  Some will  denigrate other dealer's bottles and even disparage whole ethnic groups of dealers (VERY bad) while others simply state what they see.  Each collector must decide for themselves which dealers to trust but they must also rely on their own instincts and knowledge.  Handling as many bottles as possible, listening to lectures and reading as much on the subject will help a collector avoid mistakes but mistake will be made nonetheless.  When something suddenly comes "out of the blue" and has a pricey cost associated with it, a warning alarm should ring.

As a personal supposition, when the Perry book pictured No 7, a brass bottle dated 1646, someone decided to make copies for the collector market.  From a relatively utilitarian example pictured in black and white, others were made.  Perhaps these were 20th. c pieces, I don't know and I think we probably never will know for certain.  However; a 17th. c date seems way out of wack to me.  If indeed this was when snuff was being introduced to the Chinese court it probably would have been kept in Western bottles or boxes which would have come with the gift and used as a medicine.

Perry's book remains a wonderful introduction guide for the collector.  Some of the bottles pictured and described are indeed superb.  Research by dealers and collectors has; however, advanced exponentially since then and all collectors need to keep up with the latest developments.  There will be more research in the future and also some "false" starts here and there but a collector and serious student of the genre needs to keep an open (and even skeptic) outlook before dropping a wad of cash.  This is one of the GREAT strengths of the Forum!  New collectors can read what experienced collectors have learned and, hopefully find the right path.  This Forum is one of the great strengths a new collector can use and it is a tribute to all who contribute of their knowledge and experience so freely and generously.

Rick
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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2017, 03:50:46 pm »

Dear Rick,
 
    EVERYTHING you wrote was right, though I think the fake 'shunzhi' Bronze bottles were ca. 1850-1900 in date, though I can see that they could have been made ca. 1960-1970 as well.

    I also agree that new collectors can learn a lot from the Forum, assuming they are willing to learn.
The old saying, "You can lead a horse to water..." certainly is true.

Best,
Joey
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