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Fossiliferous limestone

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Author Topic: Fossiliferous limestone  (Read 384 times)
Wattana
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« on: February 20, 2017, 12:32:24 am »

I posted a group of bottles in this material on another thread:
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3180.0/msg,44135.html
I had intended to post some of those bottles individually in a separate thread, but didn't get around to it. Surprisingly I couldn't find an existing thread dedicated to fossiliferous limestone, so here goes. Enjoy!

Fossiliferous limestone snuff bottle of compressed ovoid form with a slightly tapering neck and shoulders, flat oval lip, and a raised oval foot with flat base; the marine polyps forming cream coloured circles against a reddish-brown matrix. Turquoise stopper set in a silver collar; brass spoon in the shape of an open-palmed hand.

Height without stopper: 6.2 cm

Tentative dating: ca. 1780-1860
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 02:10:44 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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Wattana
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 02:06:39 am »

I had an inkling that I had posted this bottle on the forum before. But when I did a search for the word "fossiliferous" nothing showed up, leading me to assume not. But I now see that it was posted before, almost three years ago! So I will refer readers to the earlier post and remove the images from the above post, to free up valuable space on the forum.  My apologies!

Here is a link to the older thread....
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2040.0.html

BTW, I still cannot find it through the forum's "search" tool (I found it on my old email notifications)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 04:27:45 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 04:03:24 am »

Was a nice bottle 3 years ago and still is ...lol....

I always wanted one like this but never found one i could or wanted to afford ...
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Pat
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2017, 05:12:40 am »

Thanks Pat!

Now here is a recent acquisition which I have NOT posted before (except in a family group shot) because I only had it photographed properly earlier this month. For some reason the song 'Starry Starry Night' comes to mind every time I look at it.

Description
Fossiliferous limestone snuff bottle of tall flask form with rounded shoulders, cylindrical neck, flat lip, a recessed flat foot with raised footrim, and neatly carved taotie mask-and-ring handles at the lateral sides; the black matrix evenly suffused with light grey marine inclusions. Pink coral stopper set in a silver collar. Formerly in the Heriot Collection, and prior to that the Trojan Collection.
Height without stopper:  7.6 cm
Tentative dating: 1780-1850

Further Commentary
As the popularity of snuff taking expanded outside court circles towards the end of the Qianlong period a fascination for new and unusual materials from which to fashion snuff bottles developed.
Fossiliferous limestone provided the lapidary with almost limitless possibilities, due to the wide variety of colours and patterns created by the organic inclusions. 
The quality of carving on details such as the mask handles and foot rim are unusually high for a bottle of this material.

Enjoy!


* SB180.1a-lo.jpg (76.42 KB, 600x750 - viewed 20 times.)

* SB181.1b-lo.jpg (71.72 KB, 600x750 - viewed 15 times.)

* SB181.1d-lo.jpg (69.02 KB, 600x750 - viewed 12 times.)

* SB181.1e-lo.jpg (71.02 KB, 600x750 - viewed 5 times.)

* SB181.1f-detail.jpg (80.85 KB, 600x750 - viewed 23 times.)

* SB181.1g-lo.jpg (56.06 KB, 600x480 - viewed 15 times.)

* SB181.1h-lo.jpg (54.64 KB, 600x480 - viewed 12 times.)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 05:46:34 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2017, 05:37:50 am »

Hmmm ... you want to make us drool or what ? I love the shape ... and yes could be a Christmas bottle !  These kinds of bottles are what is so difficult to discern between old and new. I have never seen a new (er) one of this shape. Congrats!
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George
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 12:13:17 am »

An amazing bottle Tom !

The first thing I noticed is the unusually high quality of carving especially noted for the masks, and as well the raised foot rim..

Beauty !
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2017, 01:41:27 am »

"Starry, Starry Night" seems perfect to describe this beauty.  Glad you shared with us. 
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2017, 03:16:55 am »

Another lovely bottle Tom.

As George has said, the work on the mask handles is very good, someone going the extra mile as it were.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2017, 08:24:00 pm »

Tom,

I really like this bottle, especially how the collar design plays off the fossiliferous limestone!

Cheers,

Rheuben
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

Wattana
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2017, 09:20:32 pm »

Dear All,

Thanks for your comments!  Yes, the mask handles, if present at all on bottles of this material, are rarely so well executed. Same applies to the raised foot rim.

Rheuben, I hadn't noticed that about the silver collar - a good observation!

Tom
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 10:21:57 pm »

Tom, or anyone:

I don't know if this is the proper thread to ask this question, but I didn't see references to it in the stopper/spoon  category, so newbie me will ask here: How much does the stopper/spoon design affect the value of a given bottle? Or if the stopper or spoon is missing, how much is detracted?  Is it just assumed that stoppers and spoons usually aren't original?  When I saw your beautiful fossiliferous limestone bottle I immediately thought the stopper and collar added so much to its total presence aesthetically.  Does it matter?

Cheers,


Rheuben
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2017, 10:26:57 pm »

Rheuben

Stoppers and spoons have always been a matter of accessory and personal taste.  I have tracked many bottles through several auctions over time with the stopper changed to match the personal taste of the owner/seller each time.

That being said, however, I have seen some mediocre bottles sell for astronomical amounts, which were related, in my view, due to the 'perceived value and like/love' of the stopper and/or spoon it came with.  There was one auction on ebay a few years ago where a loose standalone semi-precious gemstone stopper (tourmaline or amethyst, can't exactly remember, no collar, no spoon) was sold for almost 700 USD!!

So yes, the stopper and spoons affect the value of a snuff bottle, no doubt about it!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 10:31:32 pm by Pat - 查尚杰 » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 11:31:00 pm »

Hi Rheuben,

Pat is correct in what he says. It is very much to do with the taste of the individual owner. I would slightly amend one point though - the stopper and spoon only affect the PERCEIVED value. The 'real' value of a good quality bottle is not misled by the stopper. Sometimes you will see a high quality old bottle offered for sale without a stopper (or a really crappy one), and see it sell for a good price because astute buyers look beyond the stopper.

Tom
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 11:32:42 pm by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 05:07:46 am »

Pat and Tom,

Thank you for weighing in on this topic.  I have a few bottles which I really don't care for the stoppers, and I think at some point I may consider changing them.

Cheers,


Rheuben
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Rube, 4th Generation Collector

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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 09:03:40 am »

Tom,

Your postings made my day  Cheesy

Like George, I was drawn to the fine execution of the masks, the head especially. Did I see it right that the loop below the head has an inner concave recess ?

Inn Bok
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2017, 09:12:41 am »

Hi Rheuben,

You mentioned about the stopper and spoon.

A Chinese dealer was once shown a glass bottle of mine and before he left Singapore, he was only interested in the stopper and spoon. We met again some 6 - 7 months later and I put the same bottle ( but replaced by a different, lesser stopper ) among the few I showed him. You know what. He asked where that stopper has gone and asked if I would sell him the bottle with the earlier stopper !

I attached a picture of the glass bottle with the stopper/spoon this Chinese dealer was interested in !

Inn Bok


* 203.JPG (81.32 KB, 478x640 - viewed 20 times.)
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2017, 04:38:17 pm »

Inn Bok,

Thanks for sharing the bottle and it's story!

Cheers,

Rheuben
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2017, 08:12:13 pm »

Inn Bok,

I can understand why your Chinese dealer wanted the earlier stopper on this bottle. They really are a good match - "a marriage made in heaven!"  Cheesy

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2017, 09:31:50 am »

Tom,

The truth of the matter was that the dealer was interested in the quality of the jade used for the stopper, as well as the gold used to make the spoon ! Sorry the picture did not show clearly the golden spoon.

Inn Bok
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2017, 10:10:07 pm »

Quote
Description: Starry, Starry, Night
Fossiliferous limestone snuff bottle of tall flask form with rounded shoulders, cylindrical neck, flat lip, a recessed flat foot with raised footrim, and neatly carved taotie mask-and-ring handles at the lateral sides; the black matrix evenly suffused with light grey marine inclusions. Pink coral stopper set in a silver collar. Formerly in the Heriot Collection, and prior to that the Trojan Collection.
Height without stopper:  7.6 cm
Tentative dating: 1780-1850


Tom,

I believe I know the purchase source of this bottle, and I took a deep liking to it when I first saw it.  Please tell me it came with the black cabochon stopper.  If so I feel the black is a much more attractive.  Just my opinion.  Grin  Regardless it is a beautiful bottle.   

Charll 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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