General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Steven shared this beautiful Ma Shaoxian bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 18, 2017, 08:52:38 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Your thoughts please!

Poll
Question: WIwmd
vFmffFVN
HwZRSTDXHiVr
IAwrEsRtWqDApK
xmPFTsUPy
KrDpdIidLQHcKOLLSzs

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Your thoughts please!  (Read 319 times)
Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« on: February 18, 2017, 08:10:32 am »

Hello again, I would like to hear your thoughts on this cloisonne bottle, as usual, I am not sure if this could be an older one? I have looked at the pieces in the Marakovic collection, and I think it might be late Qing? However I am not experienced enough to date it...Thank you very much in advance,
Matthias


* cl1.jpg (181.01 KB, 938x1134 - viewed 61 times.)

* cl2.jpg (143.33 KB, 938x1134 - viewed 16 times.)

* cl3.jpg (172.8 KB, 1391x1134 - viewed 24 times.)

* cl4.jpg (224.53 KB, 1953x1134 - viewed 21 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Social Buttons

albert
Full Member
***
Posts: 130


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 10:31:36 am »

Thanks to share it!

I'm completly unexpert, but In my eyes is not old.
Report Spam   Logged
Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2017, 01:31:32 am »

Thank you albert!
Report Spam   Logged
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2017, 03:49:48 pm »

Beautiful bottle, and I tend to agree with Albert..
Report Spam   Logged

Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3397


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2017, 06:54:15 pm »

Hmm . I am not so sure. It seeems to have some age. Nice bottle in any case.
Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5109



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2017, 11:55:30 pm »

Hi Mat,

I agree that it is an attractive looking bottle, and appears to have some convincing wear to it. But the green bothers me. It is not a colour I remember seeing on older cloisonné examples. Of course, it's hard to tell from photos - it could just be the lighting exaggerating the hues.

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2017, 08:35:40 am »

Thank you all for your comments! Tom, you are right, the colours are much brighter in the photo than they are in reality. I have seen that green on old cloisonne, but as background it is indeed unusual. The age signs look indeed ok, so I do not think it is new...
Regards, Matthias
Report Spam   Logged
Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2017, 04:22:27 am »

I searched a bit for comparable bottles and found some examples that are at least in design and shape quite similar, with main difference that the background is left open on these. They are all dated to the Qing dynasty, but I have no idea if that is correct...

http://www.fei123.com/290000/286613.shtml

http://blog.qq.com/qzone/626800641/1389605174.htm

http://auction.artron.net/paimai-art5040935916/

Another one is in the catalog of Jill discussed in another thread on this forum, it is Nr. 74.

Although there are differences in colour and technique, I think my bottle is clearly related to this group... What do you think, is mine a later version, or just another version made at the same period when the other bottles were made? And are they really Qing? Thank you again for your thoughts!
Matthias

PS. I did not have the time to make new pictures, but I tried to edit one so that the colours of my bottle are a bit closer to reality...


* cl1a.jpg (178.14 KB, 938x1134 - viewed 11 times.)
Report Spam   Logged
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2017, 04:38:54 am »

The examples you shared are a bit different in that they are plique-a-jour technique.. So not sure they are good comparisons.. I am not so sure a couple of those are even Qing.. So I would exclude yours from that group. 
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2017, 05:34:09 am »

It looks to have some age, as Pat said. I am torn between ca.1870-1930 and ca.1950-1975 (see below).
But there were lots of fine (too finely done for Qing Dynasty, due to technological limitations in the 18th & 19th C.), examples made in the 1950s/1960s/early 1970s.
This looks uncomplicated enough to be a genuine late 19th C. example.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2017, 05:44:54 am »

Thank you George and Joey ! Yes, I am aware of the 1960s -70s pieces, I have one myself, very well made, with much detail, and clearly different in style.
Regards,
Matthias
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:56:46 am by Mat » Report Spam   Logged
Mat
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 91


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2017, 08:44:43 am »

George, you are right that the other bottles are different in technique, but shape and scroll decoration are similar. I would not call them plique-à-jour, which refers to cloisonne without base, I think. Here  the spaces between the scrolls were just left free.
Matthias
Report Spam   Logged
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2017, 09:45:18 am »

George, you are right that the other bottles are different in technique, but shape and scroll decoration are similar. I would not call them plique-à-jour, which refers to cloisonne without base, I think. Here  the spaces between the scrolls were just left free.
Matthias

My mistake.. I used the wrong description.. Should have said champlevé..
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 04:47:40 pm »

Dear George,
 
     Sorry, but I have to correct you. Again, you used the wrong description. This IS cloisonne, but, as correctly described by Mat, the background was not filled in.
Champleve is where a very thick walled metal body has  a design literally gouged out of the metal bottle wall, and then the
enameling is filled in.  In 47 years of collecting Chinese snuff bottles, I've seen possibly 6 or 7; by comparison, I've seen
hundreds of genuine cloisonne bottles.
Best,
Joey


George, you are right that the other bottles are different in technique, but shape and scroll decoration are similar. I would not call them plique-à-jour, which refers to cloisonne without base, I think. Here  the spaces between the scrolls were just left free.
Matthias

My mistake.. I used the wrong description.. Should have said champlevé..
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10419



View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2017, 06:48:31 pm »

Dear George,
 
     Sorry, but I have to correct you. Again, you used the wrong description.

Thank you Joey  Smiley
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5109



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 11:05:07 pm »

It's a commonly made mistake, even among "experts". But Joey is correct. Champlevé is a different technique, and rarely found on snuff bottles.
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8594


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2017, 06:14:52 pm »

I never found one for my collection, between 1970 and 1992.  Cry
The ones I saw were in major private (J & J, Bloch, Kardos, Y.F. Yang) or museum (V & A, Chester Beatty) collections.
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal