General information about the Site

This Chinese snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

We also freely pour out our pains of spending money, only to later find that our choice in a bottle was not as we expected ! There is no extra charge for our "pain management" program !

We are also working extra hard towards supporting, and giving well deserved recognition to all new and upcoming student artists of "Very Modern" inside painted bottles.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle In The Spotlight !

Another extra special bottle that our fellow collector Pin shared. The "thousand word" classical text is painted by LI Ruchen with a beautifully shaped bottle of upright rectangular form, and sloping shoulders. Congratulations Pin !

 photo pin2.jpg

 photo petersinsidepainting_zpsiy4fy3p9.jpg

Contemporary Schools Of Inside Painting, by Peter Bentley

Part One (pdf)
Part Two (pdf)

Photobucket

Reign Marks on Qing Ceramics 1644-1912

Photobucket

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector
The web site Snuff Bottle Collector is a labor of love as an expression of gratitude to and admiration for a group of artists and craftsmen whose concentrated, patient works deserve a world audience.

 photo icsbs_zps59278249.jpg

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
June 24, 2017, 07:00:52 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Mottled lapis lazuli

Pages: [1] 2
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Mottled lapis lazuli  (Read 408 times)
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« on: February 09, 2017, 12:08:41 am »

It has been some time since I last posted a bottle on the forum. This one is from my very early collecting years. The lapis is heavily mottled with a grey matrix which makes it less than exciting, and the quality of the carving leaves a lot to be desired. But as provenance is becoming increasingly important this one may be of interest. It was bought at Christie's London in 1975, and reputedly came from the R. Gordon Smith collection. He was an active collector prior to 1920. Most of his snuff bottles were sold off in the 1920s. If anyone knows anything more about this collector or his collection I'd like to hear.   

Description:
Lapis lazuli snuff bottle of compressed spade form with short neck and everted flat oval lip, the small raised foot with a recessed base, carved in low relief at the widest point with a continuous band of leiwen or key-fret design, the material mottled blue and grey. Original matching oval stopper with integral collar and finial.

Height without stopper: 6.0 cm

Tentative dating: 1890-1920



* S010.1aa-lo.jpg (211.81 KB, 640x800 - viewed 24 times.)

* S010.1cb-lo.jpg (95.56 KB, 640x800 - viewed 11 times.)

* S010.1d-lo.jpg (86.18 KB, 640x512 - viewed 18 times.)

* S010.1e-lo.jpg (83.37 KB, 640x512 - viewed 12 times.)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:12:13 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Social Buttons

Pat - 查尚杰
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 3373


Zha Shang Jie 查尚杰


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 12:16:07 am »

Nice bottle Tom,

You will recall I have a very similar one to this.. I can't easily put my hands on the pictures now.  I really like this material .  As to age, I have been told that stone bottles that have the same material stopper as the bottle itself tend to be from this era or even newer... don't know if this is true or not..
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 12:18:17 am by Pat - 查尚杰 » Report Spam   Logged

Best Regards

Pat
查尚杰
Zha Shang Jie
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2017, 08:29:57 pm »

Thanks Pat,

If I remember correctly, the stone on your lapis bottle was better than my example. I think you are right about the matching stoppers being found on bottles from that era and newer........I'd say right up to the present. Of course, there are a few Imperial bottles dating back to the 18th century which appear to have original matching stoppers. Unfortunately this isn't one of them.  Sad

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

samsonlzj
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 386


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2017, 09:16:20 pm »

A special bottle Tom! Thanks for sharing!

I like Lapis Lazuli too. Really like the deep blue of it. To me, it always gives a rich sense of mystery. That's the charm of it. But I haven't got a bottle of this material yet.

Nice one.

Best,
Samson
Report Spam   Logged
Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3829



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 10:34:06 pm »

Dear Tom,

I dont remember that In have seen any Lapis lazuli snuff bottle which has very high standard carving. Is that because the material is not expensvie as other material or its hard to work with the material .I did acquire a example of it . Will post it ,and wanna hear your insights.

Best,

Steven
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 11:56:38 pm »

Hi Steven and Samson,

Thanks for your comments! To answer Steven's question - lapis lazuli has been highly valued since ancient times for its rich blue colour. Until the 1800s finely ground lapis was the main ingredient for creating ultramarine blue, the pigment used in ceramics, painting and dyeing of cloth. Its main source is the mountainous region of Afghanistan. Of course, it was also valued for ornaments and jewelry, especially when streaks of gold pyrites are present.

But not all lapis has that deep blue colour. The higher the proportion of grey matrix the lower the quality, so the type used for the bottle posted above would not have been valued too highly. And being brittle the stone can be difficult to work with.

Here is an older example, where both the stone and the carving are of a much higher quality.

Description:
Lapis lazuli snuff bottle of flattened moon flask form with a flared neck and everted lip, the lateral sides narrowing towards the base, and resting on an elongated flat foot. Coral stopper in the shape of an official’s hat with integral finial and collar.

Height without stopper: 6.0 cm

Tentative dating: 1750-1840
 


* S106.1b-lo.jpg (232.79 KB, 640x800 - viewed 20 times.)

* S106.1c-lo.jpg (153.48 KB, 640x800 - viewed 8 times.)

* S106.1e-lo.jpg (179.01 KB, 640x800 - viewed 17 times.)

* S106.1f-lo.jpg (130.92 KB, 640x512 - viewed 12 times.)

* S106.1g-lo.jpg (132.36 KB, 640x512 - viewed 9 times.)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 12:00:22 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3829



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2017, 02:10:25 am »

Wow Tom, That is really a beauty!!

Thanks for sharing!

Now, it makes me have to share one of my bottle, Cheesy its a quite small bottle, 1.5" tall, quite cute. I bought it only because the color is so attractive. I am not so into the shape. it also looks like have same age on it, altho I have no clue how old it would be. Would love to hear your insights.

Best,

Steven


* lapis_1.jpg (507.6 KB, 900x1284 - viewed 23 times.)

* lapis_2.jpg (493.28 KB, 900x1239 - viewed 16 times.)

* lapis_3.jpg (471.27 KB, 900x1010 - viewed 12 times.)

* lapis_4.jpg (398.78 KB, 900x840 - viewed 10 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 120


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2017, 02:30:22 am »

Hi Tom,

I've seen that beautiful lapis bottle before. I guess it's imitating the shape of those old enamelled porcelain bottles which were common at the time? I remember reading that these old lapis bottles are rare as the supply of lapis was intermittent during the Qing dynasty. I've always wanted an old lapis bottle, but the genuine articles I've seen tend to go for big money...

Luke

Report Spam   Logged

Luke
OIB
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 978


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2017, 02:42:52 am »

Tom,

You sure have two beauties !

Between the two, I like the second piece which is not so thick. also, the overall flow of the body line in the second piece is just outstanding. the transition from the neck to the shoulder and the body displays an excellent craftsmanship. I am still waiting for my LL-bottle.

in the first piece, upon enlarging the picture, am I right that the rim around the mouth has some very minor chips ? And is the mouth having a bit of chamfering on one side ?

Are the inclusions in both pieces mainly pyrites ? They are more evenly spread out in the second piece posted by you.

Congratulations Tom and thanks for sharing.

Inn Bok
Report Spam   Logged
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2017, 02:44:30 am »

Hi Steven,

I love the colour on your bottle! The overall shape, mouth, lip and foot details suggest 20th century to me, second half. But it could be earlier - really hard to say from photos.

Hi Luke,

You are correct - there is a strong correlation between my lapis and those slender enamelled porcelain bottles. The style was popular from around the mid-Qianlong to the end of the Daoguang period.

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2017, 04:10:53 am »

Hi Inn Bok,

Thanks for your comments. Yes, there are some minor chips around the edge of the lip and the stopper on the first bottle. I don't think there is any chamfering on the mouth, but I'll take a closer look next time I get a chance.

The gold streaks and flecks are pyrite. There is very little on the first bottle - more on the second. The pale grey matrix is most probably calcite.

To correct my earlier post, lapis is composed of three main ingredients, in varying quantities - sodalite (used to make blue pigment), calcite (grey), and pyrite (metallic yellow).

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Steven
Global Moderator / Forum Detective
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3829



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2017, 10:25:45 am »

Thanks Tom for your comments! Grin

I would date 20th for the bottle as well, The bottle has some sign of the usage, so I was expecting it could be a early 20th date. But it doesn't really have any big difference.Smiley

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on this interesting stone. learned a lot.

Steven

Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8093


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2017, 03:19:53 pm »

Dear Steven,

     I'd date your bottle ca. 1900-1930. I would have dated it earlier, but respect Tom's attention to the details.
 
Dear Tom,

    I love your second bottle, but even the first one is a beauty.
I used to have one similar to the second one, but, while it was thin like yours, it was a spade-shaped flattened flask, and was incised on one side with a poem about plum blossom as a harbinger of Spring, with a Qianlong Yuzhi mark ending the inscription, while a plum tree in blossom was incised on the reverse. 

    It was bought quite reasonably (US$1,400 or US$1,450) during the 1989 ICSBS Chicago convention from an English dealer living in FLA, who's a friend. When I showed it to the late Robert Kleiner and to Clare Chu (then Clare Lawrence), they both agreed it was Imperial Palace Workshops.

    Best,

  Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 01:30:01 am »

Dear All,

For reference, here are two examples of early lapis snuff bottles. The first one possibly Imperial, the second maybe, but less sure about....


http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-lapis-lazuli-snuff-bottle-probably-imperial-5658778-details.aspx


http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-lapis-lazuli-snuff-bottle-possibly-imperial-5720202-details.aspx
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1574



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 11:02:01 am »


Steven,

Just a quick note.  Upon looking at your bottle and given the white matrix, I would suspect that your bottle is actually sodalite.   This stone is a lapis look-a-like and was used in the production of snuff bottles that emerged in the 1970's to present.

Charll
Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 320


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 12:02:54 pm »

Thought I would add my bottle and try and make this a real feast of Lapis Lazuli.

Flattened oval form with well rounded shoulders and tapering very slightly towards the rounded base. The neck widening slightly at the top and with a relatively deep inset oval foot.

Another one with a glued stopper. I'm assuming relatively new with the matching stopper (which they couldn't even glue on straight) and doesn't feel that well hollowed but hard to tell as they glued the stopper.

Regards, Adrian.

PS- Someone glued the stopper in, might not have mentioned that.



* P2140498.jpg (66.87 KB, 437x600 - viewed 10 times.)

* P2140499.jpg (66.02 KB, 446x600 - viewed 4 times.)

* P2140500.jpg (46.61 KB, 339x600 - viewed 6 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8202



View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 12:08:54 pm »

A lot of really nice examples of lapis.. Lapis was a hard one for me to work with. The varying hardness between the lapis, pyrite, and calcite make it hard to keep contours even as can be seen in this last bottle of Adrians.

I especially like the really dark blue with gold colored pyrite..
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 11:22:53 pm »


I especially like the really dark blue with gold colored pyrite..


Me too. Attractive markings.
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

AntPeople
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 771



View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 11:41:00 pm »

Hi Charll :

Thanks for showing the 2 beautiful examples..... Shocked esp the one from the Hildegard Schonfeld Collection.

One question, you said that Steven bottle could be sodalite..... is sodalite characterized by the white matrix rather then the grey matrix in other bottles ? Seems like the one from the Hildegard Schonfeld Collection also have a some white matrix on it.

Thanks a lot

Pin
Report Spam   Logged



五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 4835



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2017, 12:32:44 am »

To continue this thread I'm posting a superb modern example of a Lapis Lazuli bottle. It was commissioned by a Mongolian friend, and was illustrated in the Journal of the ICSBS a few years ago in an article on snuff bottles from Mongolia. As some of you know, Mongolia is probably the last place in the world where snuff bottles are still in use. Not only do they still use snuff and keep it in bottles, the giving and receiving of bottles is part and parcel of the social networking scene, much as is was during the Qing dynasty in China. Most of the modern stone bottles are supplied from lapidaries in the Shanghai area, and only stoppered in Mongolia. But for that really special bottle, there are a couple of master carvers taking new commissions in Ulaanbaatar. For these it is normal for the 'patron' to supply the raw stone, and choose the design, as was the case here.

Of special note is the elaborate carving on the base, and the engraved motif on the underside of the solid gold collar (just visible in the last shot).
 


* DSC_4198a-lo.jpg (157.96 KB, 600x830 - viewed 8 times.)

* DSC_4207-lo.jpg (191.51 KB, 600x532 - viewed 8 times.)

* DSC_4210a-lo.jpg (57.97 KB, 600x446 - viewed 10 times.)

* DSC_4225a-lo.jpg (15.15 KB, 600x221 - viewed 9 times.)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 12:36:08 am by Wattana » Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Pages: [1] 2
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal