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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2018, 04:19:47 am
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Rhinoceros Horn Snuff Bottle

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Author Topic: Rhinoceros Horn Snuff Bottle  (Read 802 times)
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« on: February 08, 2017, 07:35:30 am »

Hello All,

This bottle was purchased in 2008. It is 2 inches tall without the stopper. I was mystified by the material, and bought it hoping it was the material stated. The eggplant shape was different too. Any comments as to the material and age would be appreciated.

Regards,

Toni-Lee


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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2017, 08:09:29 am »

Your bottle is outstanding, I like a lot! Cheesy

About the rhino horn, this is a more difficult thing to know, in my eyes itís impossible to know. I love all kinds of horn, collect them and even work whit them, and it's impossible to know the animal, because have hundreds of animals, different species, different ages, different treatment...

Thanks for share it!
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2017, 08:10:23 am »

Hi Toni-Lee,

It is never easy to judge these things from photos, but that does not look like rhino horn to me. It may be the horn of some other kind of animal. Charll is quite good at telling one horn from another.

Tom
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2017, 08:16:26 am »

Dear Albert and Tom,

Thank you for your thoughts. I too like horn bottles. I have a few various types of horn and this seems differnt from the ones I have. I know it is difficult to judge with photographs, especially mine that are far from professional. Would you venture a guess as to age?

Best,

Toni-Lee
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2017, 03:42:10 pm »

Dear Toni-Lee,

     I've not got a clue, though it does not look to me like Rhino horn. I was sadly never able to find a Rhino horn bottle I could afford, but I helped catalogue the Rhino horn libation cup collection of a dear friend, the late Marcel Lorber, after he gave it to the Israel Museum Jerusalem, and in fact, he was the one who convinced the then curator to ask me to show my collection.

   Based on my handling the 25 or 30 cups, I feel semi-secure in saying it doesn't look to me like Rhino horn. Notice I wrote 'semi-secure'?  Roll Eyes Grin

    Honestly, I can't tell. But the bottle doesn't look very old to me either. I must admit I'm stumped.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2017, 04:41:30 pm »

Hi Toni-lee,

I have to say that I have same feeling regarding the material and age of the snuff bottle.

First of all, the texture doesn't look like Rhinoceros horn to me, the horn should have very identical texture on the side and the bottom. normally  the texture on the side will be vertical lines which is similar with bamboo texture. And the bottom texture will be dots which chinese people so call " fish eggs texture"

attached please find a Rhinoceros Horn snuff dish in which we can see the texture clearly.

Second, the overall feeling of the bottle including the stopper are more close to 70s-80s ones.

Best,

Steven


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« Last Edit: February 08, 2017, 04:47:46 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2017, 07:40:45 pm »

Thanks Steven for sharing the information.... I have never seen Rhino horn in different orientation before.... great pictures to show the bambooo look alike side and the fish egg structure...thanks a lot

Just one question.... I believe that picture 1 and 3 are the same piece of material .... is the 2nd picture the same piece ?

Pin
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2017, 07:53:12 pm »

Thanks Pin!

Yes, the second image is the close up of the side texture.

Steven
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2017, 08:14:04 pm »

Hi Joey and Steven,

I must say, this bottle may require me to enroll in the "pain management" program. After examining the bottle prior to the auction, and listening to who it turned out to be my competition make positive comments to his friend, I was convinced it was rhinosceros. Apparently others thought the same and bidding went high very quickly. I must say that I have never actually seen another bottle or cup made of rhinosceros horn, and decided to "go for it" because of the material. A classic case of what not to do: take for granted that the major auction house had the description correct.  Goodness knows I did not agree that it was 18th century. That should have been a clue. I really respect your educated opinions. I can only hope that perhaps there is an outside chance it is really rhino horn.

Thank you,

Toni-Lee
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2017, 09:38:32 pm »

Hi Steven,

Thanks for your close up photos of a rhino horn snuff dish. It clearly shows the composition, which is in reality a bunch of hairs in the animal's nose which are compressed and waxed. So the side view shows the parallel lines of the hairs, and the cross-cut view shows the hair ends. Similar to the nails on our own fingers - both are keratin, and smell like burnt hair when exposed to a flame.  Wink

Tom
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 01:43:55 pm »

Hi,
I'm thinking that the rhino piece of Steve is from an African specie, and a big rhino, on the other hand, by the colour of snuff bottle maybe it's made from Asian rhino?
I want to say that the colour is not important, and sometimes the egg fish marks is not possible to see.

But if you donít be sure that the item is old, is better donít but it, these are outstanding animals which are disappearing to make tea for the rich people.


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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 01:46:05 pm »

Sorry for the picture out of the snuff bottle topic!!!

I'm environmental scientific Cry
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 05:30:44 pm »

Thanks Ablert for sharing your thoughts.

I totally agree with you that if we don't know the item is old, better don't buy it to protect those animals.

Steven
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 05:38:53 pm »

Guys,
 
    I agree, but many are also being slaughtered to harvest the rhino horn, since it is considered an aphrodisiac, or a tonic to strengthen male potency, in China and elsewhere in East Asia.

    Irish Gypsies were caught trying to steal the Marcel Lorber collection from the Israel Museum (talk about morons - trying to beat Israeli security, or embarrass Israelis over false accusations of racism!).
And their plan was to grind them up and transport the powdered horn to Europe on its way to East Asia.  Sad.
Joey
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 08:17:50 pm »

Hi Albert,

No apologies needed, as far as I'm concerned. All collectors need to be reminded of the real 'cost' of bottles made of rhinoceros horn, ivory, hornbill, etc.  If there is any chance at all that a bottle made of these materials is NOT old then avoid buying. It only fuels the market for poaching and the illegal wildlife trade. 

Tom
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2017, 04:26:20 am »

Thanks for your answers guys! Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 03:21:26 pm »

Hi Albert,

No apologies needed, as far as I'm concerned. All collectors need to be reminded of the real 'cost' of bottles made of rhinoceros horn, ivory, hornbill, etc.  If there is any chance at all that a bottle made of these materials is NOT old then avoid buying. It only fuels the market for poaching and the illegal wildlife trade. 

Tom
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