Click On Globe To View Forum Visitors From Around The World

General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Samson shared this beautiful Ye Zhongsan landscape bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:59:23 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Blue and Tan Porcelain bottle - unsure of age & meaning  (Read 287 times)
guest603
Guest
« on: January 29, 2017, 02:56:20 pm »

Hello  Cheesy I just found this bottle not to long ago. I was told it is old but not kangxi as it appears  to be marked? Does anyone have any knowledge on its age and meaning of painting. Thank you!


* 16179189_10100205899238286_4167684610609688677_o.jpg (230.99 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 34 times.)

* 16179137_10100205899193376_6205600743589351041_o.jpg (168.53 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 20 times.)

* 16179839_10100205899243276_3629204420587314896_o.jpg (245.03 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 33 times.)

* 16402686_10100205989766866_1585061173241079839_o.jpg (173.55 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 16 times.)

* 16251759_10100205990021356_1615868377623225244_o.jpg (251.62 KB, 1536x2048 - viewed 18 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Social Buttons

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2951



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2017, 03:56:37 pm »

Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2951



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2017, 04:02:42 pm »

Dear Elisha,
looking again at your bottle. I see the bats on the rim. Bats with those dots representing eyes are usually seen on late 19th/early 20th century ware, a time where Kangxi ware was replicated. May be your bottle is from that period.
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5238



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 05:17:25 am »

Dear Giovanni,

An interesting observation. But I do not see the bats' "eyes". Are you talking about the mouth rim?

Regards,
Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 05:24:53 am »

I like the look of these soft paste porcelains. Surely it is at the least a post 1800s bottle? So definitely not Kangzi as this would be a very rare bottle? I was thinking 1850-1890...

DISCLAIMER - newbie opinion Cheesy
Report Spam   Logged

Luke
pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 05:44:41 am »

Also, does the illustration on this bottle not refer to the legend of Sima Guang depicted by the big vat of water depicted on the bottle here?

Wiki link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang

Also another bottle here which has a similar illustration:
http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 05:56:12 am by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2951



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 07:24:36 am »

Dear Luke,
you may be right about the Sima Guang motif because of the presence of the jar. I thought that it was the hundred boys motif because it is common under Kangxi reign and the boys are depicted that way.
Dear Tom, here below you can see the dot eyes of the bats. Those separated dot eyes are seen on baths of the 19th century. Although rare, some even during Daoguang, but they are very common during Guangxu. Since there was a revival of Kangxi style motifs and type of decoration during Guangxu, most probably the bottle in question here is Guangxu, or a bit earlier. It is in any case an interesting bottle to study. Let see if others have seen something similar. 
Kind regards
Giovanni


* bateyes.jpg (211.28 KB, 999x890 - viewed 22 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5238



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 07:43:34 am »

Dear Giovanni,

So small! I was looking for dots of a larger size.

Thank you.
Tom

Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1655



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 11:08:23 am »

All, I'll weigh in here briefly.

Luke you are right about the Sima Guang motif.

Quote
Since there was a revival of Kangxi style motifs and type of decoration during Guangxu, most probably the bottle in question here is Guangxu, or a bit earlier.

Upon initial view I would agree with Giovanni's statements and dating. 

Lovely soft paste with some age, but not as crisp in the design and tonal elements that you generally see in a late 1700's to early 1800 piece.

Charll 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 08:53:34 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 05:22:29 pm »

Dear Elisha,
 
     There are definitely Kangxi mark and period bottles in enamel on copper.
Offhand, I can't remember ever having seen a Kangxi mark and period B & W porcelain SB.
      I've not commented here before, even though I collect B & Ws as a specialty (I have over 150, and have a catalogue by the late Robert Kleiner, "In Search of a Dragon"), because when I tap on the thumbnail pics, they expand so large I have to search around for the image. And the huge hand creeps me out...  Roll Eyes
Sorry.
Joey


Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10487



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 08:19:35 am »



Lovely soft paste with some age, but not as crisp in the design and tonally elements that you generally see in a late 1700's to early 1800 piece.



When Luke first asked me about this one, I suggested it from Jingdezhen kilns, but at the same time I did notice the lack of crisp painting.. But ignored it and told Luke this was earlier than it is..

Sorry for the poor information Luke..  Glad you found more out about it here..
Report Spam   Logged

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 08:44:41 am »

I'd like to own this bottle George, but it's not mine unfortunately Smiley Do you mean Elisha?

Luke
Report Spam   Logged

Luke
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10487



View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 04:19:05 pm »

Do you mean Elisha?



Ah.., ok.  It was Elisha  Smiley
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 07:01:09 am »

Soft Paste Porcelain could come from the Jingdezhen Kilns, but could equally have been made elsewhere.
More commonly, it was Hard Paste Porcelain that was made in Jingdezhen.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

guest603
Guest
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2017, 09:26:18 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you so much for telling me about the bottle. What a good eye on the bat eyes. I couldn't tell until I wiped the top part a little!

Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Report Spam   Logged
guest603
Guest
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2017, 09:27:07 am »

I just looked up the legend how interesting thank you:)

Also, does the illustration on this bottle not refer to the legend of Sima Guang depicted by the big vat of water depicted on the bottle here?

Wiki link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Guang

Also another bottle here which has a similar illustration:
http://www.espace4.com/en/collections/porcelain-soft-paste-snuff-bottle-sima-guang-legend/
Report Spam   Logged
guest603
Guest
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2017, 09:28:39 am »

Dear Joey, your collection sounds incredible! I am just starting out trying to not make too many mistakes, so happy I found this forum!
Dear Elisha,
 
     There are definitely Kangxi mark and period bottles in enamel on copper.
Offhand, I can't remember ever having seen a Kangxi mark and period B & W porcelain SB.
      I've not commented here before, even though I collect B & Ws as a specialty (I have over 150, and have a catalogue by the late Robert Kleiner, "In Search of a Dragon"), because when I tap on the thumbnail pics, they expand so large I have to search around for the image. And the huge hand creeps me out...  Roll Eyes
Sorry.
Joey


Dear Elisha,
the motif of the hundred boys is common during Kangxi indeed, but there are two things excluding that this bottle is Kangxi.
First the stained foot, off for Kangxi.
And second the mark itself, I may be wrong but I don't think that mark and period Kangxi bottles does exist. Our fellow member Joey will be more precise about this second point, as I told you in your welcome post I am relatively new in snuff bottles field.
The bottle looks to have some age, if it is a recent fake it is well done.
Kind regards
Giovanni

Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2017, 10:49:19 am »

Dear Elisha,

      That bottle, while NOT Kangxi period, is a very desirable example, and probably from the Guangxu reign (ca. 1874-1908). Many times, fake marks were painted on otherwise superb examples.  In my catalogue of 110 bottles, 24 have marks that CAN'T be right, but the bottles are superb examples, none the less.

    One simply doesn't describe them as correct mark and period. That solves the problem.

    I have a bunch of genuine marked examples (from Yongzheng, Qianlong, Jiaqing, Daoguang, Xianfeng, Tongzhi, and Guangxu reigns), as well as an unmarked example that may well be genuine Kangxi (dated ca.1690-1735 by the late Robert Kleiner in an 'Arts of Asia' article in 2012).
As well, I've a couple with Yongzheng marks that could be genuine mark and period, though the present 'accepted wisdom' in the snuff bottle world is that they are not.
   
      At the time of your bottle (ca.1880-1910), there was a lot of interest in the Kangxi wares, because the Dowager Empress Cixi admired them, and she was very influential from the 1860s to her death in 1908, a few days after the death of the Guangxu Emperor (they both died of the flu, which killed a lot of people in those times).

     Best,
Joey
   
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 05:55:44 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal