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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
May 28, 2018, 12:13:17 am
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Enamel Painted Porcelain Bottle

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Author Topic: Enamel Painted Porcelain Bottle  (Read 249 times)
Mat
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« on: January 27, 2017, 03:05:47 am »

Hello again, my question about this bottle is whether it is a snuff or a medicine bottle? And who are the three men shown? Could they be the "Three Pure Ones" of Daoism, or just some other sages? And how would you date the bottles?
Thank you very much in advance,
Matthias


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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 10:23:17 am »

Dear Matthias,

     I'm afraid I'm going to sound like a broken record.
Please look at your previous post to find out what we need from you if we are to give any sort of answer.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Mat
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 02:52:08 pm »

Joey, no, not at all, I ask the same from others all the time when it comes to Japanese porcelain, so I should have known! So, the size of the bottle is 7.5 cm and the opening 0.9 cm!
Regards,
Matthias


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Joey
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 03:29:05 pm »

Dear Matthias,

      I am happy that you are so understanding! Thank you.
Now, this looks to me definitely as a snuff bottle, and may well be later in the Guangxu
reign. The Guangxu Emperor reigned from 1874 - 1908, but I think this is ca. 1890-1908.
I could be wrong, however. Giovanni and Charll, as well as Steven and George, are all much more familiar with late 19th C. / early 20th C. enameled porcelain than I.

   Best,
And GONG XI FA CAI  /  GUNG HEE FAT CHOY
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 12:14:02 pm »

I am not more familiar, but agree with Joey that most likely Late 19th Early 20th..

I like the shape very much..

A beautiful bottle and congratulations !
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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2017, 08:18:04 pm »

Same comment as earlier on the other bottle. I think it is nice but modern.
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Pat
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Joey
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 09:09:26 am »

Dear Pat,

     And see my later comment after yours. You may well be correct.
But I will wait till Giovanni weighs in, before changing my opinion.  Shocked Grin Roll Eyes
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 02:18:48 pm »

Dear Matthias,
I think that this bottle is a bit better than the other one, but still they are not correct I think. Both bottles are copying the Tongzhi style but both them are off. This one is a bit better so it may be Guangxu as Joey suggested, but most probably not, it should be a later copy. But I am not sure. It depends also on the black, that is pale in density. By the pictures it is not possible to understand if the black is pale because it vanished in time, which is a good sign, or if it has been used a pale black to simulate the natural vanishing.   
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 02:25:51 pm »

Dear Matthias,

     I must confess that I've never knowingly purchased enameled porcelain SBs this late (late 19th/early 20th C.) and must accede to Giovanni, who knows much more than I on this genre.

    As they say in the USA (and Canada, where I learned the phrase), "You can take Giovanni's judgement to the bank".  So Pat was right as well.
Sorry for misleading you earlier.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 05:10:38 pm »

I beg the differ, the bottle looks right to me being a old bottle, I do notice the painting style is a a little off Tongzi period, but closer to Guangxu based on my little knowledge on the porcelain. Maybe not exactly, but acceptable. The base rim, and mouth , and the sign off the wear all point to a old bottle.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Steven
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 02:46:35 am »

Dear Steven,
the foot and mouth are exactly the reasons why I didnít exclude completely that the bottle could be Guangxu. If I could handle the bottle and see the nature of the black in real, then I will be in better porition to judge it.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 06:49:18 am »

Dear Matthias,

    And now I don't know what to say!
I trust Giovanni's opinion, but also Steven's.
The big problem for me, as well as for Giovanni, I think, is not being able to 'relate' to the bottle other than over the screen. If I could hold the bottle, I'd be able to say, "Yup, it's right", or "No, it's wrong".

   I must admit I'm torn two ways.
Good Luck,
Joey
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Mat
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 07:14:16 am »

Thank you all for your comments and sorry for my late response! This is a very interesting discussion for me!
I do not know much about snuff bottles (yet, I hope), but I have a bit of experience with Chinese porcelain, and looking at the bottle I never doubted that it has some age, I must admit. The wear at the bottom and the gilding at the mouth look ok in my opinion, and also the enamels are right, when I hold it side by side with other late 19th c pieces I have. Also the figures that look somehow "compressed", with short legs, are typical for Guangxu period, I believe... Also the faces look ok for that time span, don't they? As I said, I am not a snuff bottle expert, and I do not know how good the fakes are, but as a piece of Chinese porcelain I would have dated the bottle to late 19th c, too...
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Mat
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2017, 07:18:02 am »

I forgot to add that the paste has also the right colour for later 19th c, in my opinion...
Regards, Matthias
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2017, 10:43:22 am »

Dear Mat,
if you have experience on Chinese porcelain, then I will explain better my thought. It is true that the faces are even in pre-Guangxu style, but they do look more stiff than usual, which usually denotes a copy, but it could well be also a problem due to a not skilled hand. After all, nobody born skilled.  So to determine if the bottle is a later copy or a genuine one but of not so good quality, it is important to determine if it has age or not, as the base seems to suggest. For that reason, I mentioned the black. If you have experience on that, you certainly know about the problem of the black which is fading in time. The faded black is very typical, and you should be able to determine if the pale black spots that we see on the hair and shoes of the figures is so pale because of fading or not.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Mat
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 04:55:16 am »

Dear Giovanni,
thank you, the black in the areas you mention is not faded, but just less thick, I guess that that this was intentionally made, but not to imitate fading, just as part of the design... It is not a different black from that in the areas around, just less densely applied. There is some fading in other areas, on the thin lines. I looked at it with a magnifying glass and compared it to other late 19th c porcelain I have, and I think it looks similar...
Regards,
Matthias
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