General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, evaluating, identifying, researching, appraisals, and much more.

We are also currently working extra hard towards supporting, and giving well deserved recognition to all new and upcoming student artists of "Very Modern" inside painted bottles.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Adrain shared this beautiful Ye Zhongsan smokey rock crystal bottle

Photobucket

Photobucket

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector

The International Chinese Snuff Bottle Society


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 22, 2017, 11:54:01 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Two Malachite bottles

Pages: [1] 2
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Two Malachite bottles  (Read 307 times)
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 381


View Profile
« on: January 18, 2017, 07:51:01 am »

Thought I would share my 2 Malachite bottles, both of which are very small, 39mm without the stopper for the right hand bottle.

The stopper on the left one is glued in and was auctioned at the same time as a very nice lacque burgaute one with the stopper glued and a label glued to the back. They were the property of a titled collector, Sir someone or other, although the term collector shouldn't be applied here as someone who defaces objects of art in this way is not a collector, should be stripped of his title and booted square in his Gentlemans area as far as I'm concerned.

To put the size in context, the lion's face without the ring on which is carved on the left bottle is 8mm high. There is a tortoise carved on one side and a butterfly on the other, both symbols of longevity and also of joy in the case of the butterfly.

While I admired the work put into the carving on the left bottle, I prefer the unadorned right one which simply lets the material it was worked in speak for itself.

Both I would think are contemporary.

Regards, Adrian.


* P1010451.jpg (92.4 KB, 566x480 - viewed 26 times.)

* P1010452.jpg (92.06 KB, 567x480 - viewed 20 times.)

* P1010453.jpg (85.63 KB, 525x480 - viewed 15 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Social Buttons

AntPeople
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 786



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 08:15:33 am »

The plain bottle has Beautiful pattern !

Thanks for sharing

Pin
Report Spam   Logged

五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1584



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 09:47:49 am »

Quote
Both I would think are contemporary.

Adrian, you would be correct in the above comment. The bottle shapes, designs, carving quality, and the clean polished surface lacking an aged patina, are screaming contemporary to me.  I would judge these to be post 1970. 

I know the one stopper is glued.  There are solvents that will loosen the stopper and can be used to clean the glue residue.   

Can you indicate how much effort went into hollowing?  I would suspect that the inside hollowed area was simply a left in a rough ground unpolished state.   

Charll
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 09:58:35 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 381


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2017, 12:37:52 pm »

Thank you Pin.

I was in South Africa recently and there is a lot of Malachite on offer there but the patterning on the things I looked at were bland in comparison to the right hand bottle.

Hi Charll,

Obviously I can only report on the right hand bottle. It is fairly well hollowed although they left weight in the base which is needed due to the size of the bottle, it is dwarfed by my other bottles. The height of the neck makes it impossible to get right into the sides to hollow them higher in the bottle and the inside is relatively rough.

The size of the bottles means that even if they were well hollowed they couldn't hold a meaningful amount of snuff. There is an ivory spoon on the right bottle but the bottles are so small you could just insert one in each nostril and tip your head back to get your snuff fix.

Regards, Adrian.

Report Spam   Logged

albert
Full Member
***
Posts: 105


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2017, 01:23:46 pm »

The bottle located in the right of the picture presents a really beautiful pattern, indeed malachite is one of my fauvorite stones!!

Thanks for sharing Cheesy
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8267


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2017, 01:44:13 pm »

Dear Adrian,

     I agree that they are contemporary, but the markings are so beautiful.
I am not happy to hear that someone who considered himself a collector was so dismissive as to damage the bottles that way.
Especially the Lacque Burgaute. How are you to remove something glued onto a surface made up of tiny pieces of mother of pearl and foil? That is shameful.
Thank you for posting them.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 381


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 09:50:09 am »

Dear Joey and Albert,

Thank you both for your comments. Whilst the beauty of so many snuff bottles are the result of artists and craftsmen working together, sometimes it just needs a craftsman and mother nature to do the job.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8267


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 12:37:07 pm »

That is very true, Adrian.
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey and Albert,

Thank you both for your comments. Whilst the beauty of so many snuff bottles are the result of artists and craftsmen working together, sometimes it just needs a craftsman and mother nature to do the job.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8282



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 05:25:32 pm »

Better than average pattern on the right bottle.. Really nice !

I am not sure I understand why the carver found it necessary to leave the bottom part of the bottle non hollowed because of it's size.

I will guess that it has a flat base, and agree with Charll's post 1970 dating.
Report Spam   Logged

forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 381


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 03:58:59 am »

Hi George,

You're right in not understanding why it wasn't hollowed down to the base as I have delved around inside it with a cocktail stick and it is hollowed all the way down.

It's so small that you can't really tell where the weight in it is but is heavier than you would expect for it's size and considering it's well hollowed. The weight is in the shoulders which due to the length of the neck couldn't be worked. And yes, a flat base. I wouldn't have been brave enough to take the thinness of the malachite in the neck to where the carver did, as a material it seems relatively brittle.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Full Member
***
Posts: 182


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 09:57:07 am »

Hi Everyone,

Because I haven't posted a bottle in awhile (like a few days) I'm sharing a malachite bottle with you on this thread.  Adrian, I like both of your bottles, especially the second!

My bottle, measuring 2 3/8",  is of tapered spade form with a slightly flared neck, and sitting on a splayed oval recessed foot rim.  I can identify the ruyi heads, but the rest of the carving I'm not sure about.  I mean, do the elongated c scrolls have symbolism?  Is this what is considered "archaistic"?

Until I pulled out the broken spoon, I would have guessed this to be an older bottle, but I found it to also not be super well hollowed.  As Bob Stevens wrote that contemporary malachite bottles were of darker material and not well hollowed, is this a correct assumption on my part?  It was purchased in 1952.

Also, I'd like to ask the group their thoughts about switching out the jade stopper with one made of lapis?  Thoughts?

Cheers,

Rube.


* FullSizeRender malachite 1.jpg (91.45 KB, 480x640 - viewed 27 times.)

* FullSizeRender malachite 2.jpg (87.76 KB, 480x640 - viewed 23 times.)

* FullSizeRender malachite 3.jpg (65.89 KB, 480x640 - viewed 18 times.)

* FullSizeRender malachite 4.jpg (71.8 KB, 480x640 - viewed 19 times.)

* FullSizeRender malachite 5.jpg (67.97 KB, 480x640 - viewed 20 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8282



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 10:46:08 am »

Wonderful bottle Rube.. I have always like malachite..

I believe yours was likely carved about the time of purchase. Lovely shape.

The elongated C scrolls and the short C's that are joined together both either represent silk worms and or cloud scrolls.

Not sure about a blue lapis stopper matching the green.
Report Spam   Logged

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 146


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 10:59:11 am »

Hi Rube,

Great looking bottle... I love the jade stopper - definitely wouldn't swap it out. I know many of the more exotic materials correlate with later bottles... I thought initially the bottle is probably 19th or early 20th... regardless a really nice bottle imo...

Luke

PS: when you mention the hollowing is not great - is it still reasonably hollowed inside? How heavy is the bottle?
Report Spam   Logged

Luke
forestman
Private Boards
Sr. Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 381


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 11:17:53 am »

Hi Rube,

I like your bottle as well and I'm wondering if it may be made of Turquoise which can be quite green in colour, there's something about the texture of the surface about it that doesn't look as Malachite as it might !!!!

I wouldn't go for a lapis stopper but it's a personal choice and your call in the end.

Regards, Adrian.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Full Member
***
Posts: 182


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 11:44:43 am »

Thanks for your comments everyone!  I guess I'll just have to save up for a nice lapis bottle, as I'd like to have one in my collection (the next Bonhams auction has a dandy, but it's estimated well out of my range). 

George,
Thanks for identifying the c scrolls.  (I love the green glass bottles with blue overlay, that's what I was going for by changing the top.)

Luke,
It's heavy, I was wondering about the hollowing being poor, because of the tapered shape of the bottle? It's more than just a core drilling, however.

Adrian,
I'm calling it malachite, because that's how my grandmother labeled it.  My grandfather was a geologist, though I doubt he tested the specific gravity on it.  I should probably test it, as a friend recently suggested it might be chloromelanite? The second picture shows how it goes lighter in the middle, which I thought looked like malachite.  I hadn't thought about turquoise...

cheers,
Rube
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector
pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 146


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 12:36:47 pm »

Rube,

About the material - I'm sure your grandfather certainly knew his stuff. Interestingly I can't see any evidence of the circling pattern I'm used to seeing with malachite. Your bottle actually reminds me a lot of the material in this link:

http://www.cottoneauctions.com/lots/8617/spinach-jade-snuff-bottle

Luke
Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Rube
Full Member
***
Posts: 182


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 12:40:21 pm »

Luke,

It certainly does!

Cheers,

Rube.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 8282



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 02:38:20 pm »

Maybe a light scratch test to confirm.. Malachite is very soft..
Report Spam   Logged

Rube
Full Member
***
Posts: 182


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 03:19:39 pm »

George,

Thanks, I'll try that. 

So, I've been so curious about your comments that I actually retrieved the bottle and tested its specific gravity.
It weighs 3.2 oz, and I incorrectly measured it, it's actually 2 1/2" tall w/o stopper.  Interestingly, it's specific gravity, if I tested correctly, is 3.21, much closer to jade than malachite.  You people are GOOD! And, it appears that I'm batting around
.150...

Cheers,
Rube.
Report Spam   Logged

Rube, 4th Generation Collector
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8267


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 03:28:48 pm »

Dear Rube,

     My vote would have been Chloromelanite or Spinach green jade. And I'd have dated it ca. 1920-1952. I think it could be Republic of China, though it could also be early PRC.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: [1] 2
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal