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January 20, 2018, 06:54:42 pm
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Huge Ivory Column Bottle - intricately carved

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Author Topic: Huge Ivory Column Bottle - intricately carved  (Read 1412 times)
forestman
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2017, 11:32:12 am »

That wasn't the one I meant although it demonstrates the same change of opinion.

This was the one which has a lot of commentary if you scroll down.

 http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/19305/lot/24/

Regards, Adrian.
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cshapiro
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2017, 12:50:48 pm »

Dear Inn Bok,
Thank you for the reference! It is a very good one - with the pagodas and steps, even the way the stone was done on the wall. Also same level of detail on the faces.
Very interesting to see they refer to a polychrome made in Canton! How interesting! Perhaps not all of the polychrome bottles can be attributed to the Japanese!
And yes, it is such a shame that the bottle does not have it's original top. I put a very poor one on there and am not holding out much hope that I will ever be able to find an oval large ivory stopper. I can do better than what I have though, so will remove it post haste!
Happy New Year to you! 新年快乐 / 新年快樂

Dear Adrian,
The commentary is very interesting on the Bonham's bottle you shared. Thank you! I also wondered about stained ivory. Mine has neither stain nor polychrome, so now I hope to investigate the "theme" of the carving to get more clues because that seemed to heavily weigh on the Bonham's decision to classify that one as Japanese.
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Cathy
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2017, 07:31:30 pm »

Cathy

Having been in Thailand a long time, I particularly like the 'Thai' ivory bottles you acquired. I have been either outbid/ or rejected in several sales because of the CITES restrictions, and have not been able to find any locally .   Congratulations!  Joey turned you on to a nice lot!
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Pat
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cshapiro
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2017, 09:17:09 pm »

Thank you Pat! They are delightful! I do hope that you are able to get one. Perhaps by the time I'm ready to start letting go of some bottles the restrictions on the older works of art will make it easier for collectors out of the country.  If it does, I will keep you first in mind.
In the meantime, I have acquisition syndrome.

Would really like your opinions on this bottle that popped up on ebay while we were talking about ivory:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/332099226173?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

The bottle shape is different, but the theme is similar to #0.4 in the Marquess of Exeter and #98 in The Blair Bequest.
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Cathy
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2017, 09:28:30 pm »

Cathy

That is a bone bottle.  It is not ivory, near I can tell.  Look at the shape from the top.  You can actually still see the rough(er) ovalish outline of the full bone extract used to carve it.  I also don't see any cross-hatching...

It went for more money than it should have in my opinion.
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Pat
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forestman
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 07:01:44 am »

Hi Cathy,

The main body of the bottle you linked to is bone as Pat says. It doesn't have a surface sheen like ivory which is a tooth not a fibrerous bone and the carving has gone through the outer, more polished bone surface so it looks dirty because some of darker bone fibres are showing up as darker marks on the surface.

There are what could be Schrenger lines on the base and top but it is made in sections so the top and bottom could be ivory.

Being bone, the main structure has a hollow inside where the bone marrow is. As the bone marrow is easy to remove you get an easily well hollowed body, especially as you can hollow it before the base and top are fitted. There is reference in the Marquess of Exeter book to some of their ivory bottles being made in sections which may have been to aid hollowing.

Clearly you cannot form a base or top from soft bone marrow. The only way to get a one piece bone bottle is to start near a joint because that is solid bone all the way through and can form the base. Further up in the bone you can then use the hollow where the bone marrow is to form the opening for the stopper. Bone is also more oval near joints which is why solid bone bottles are oval although bovine bone might be to large to make this viable.

There are better pictures of the Marquess of Exeter bottles in the link although not all are pictured and sadly not the ones I am interested in although I could ask them if I could go along and photograph them in detail.

http://www.burghley.co.uk/collections/category/chinese-works-of-art/

Regards, Adrian.
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cshapiro
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« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2017, 10:58:08 am »

Ah! Thanks Pat and Adrian!

Yes, I see the pitting and discoloration on the main section, and thought it was just dirty. Doing some research on bone, I find that all bone carvings show some of that no matter how well polished. It never occurred to me that someone would use a different body from the top and base.

Thanks!
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Cathy
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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2017, 05:08:05 am »

Hello,

Thanks for share these beautiful items, and cshapiro, thanks for you first words about this kind of materials Wink.
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