Message #45559

[forestman]

Hi Cathy,

The bottles in your link are very similar to ones in Bob Stevens book, illustration 762 and 794 to a degree as well. I don't think Kleiner was referring to that style which have a Japanese feel to them and Hugh Moss refers to Japanese made ivory bottles as becoming increasingly Japanese over time as they moved on from simply copying Chinese designs. In terms of inlaid lacquer panels I would think Kleiner was more likely to be referring to a bottle as in illustration 757.

My confusion in what Kleiner says is he essentially says two things. The earliest, very high quality Japanese ivory bottles "often" had inlaid lacquer panels. So not all had inlaid lacquer panels, some were just ivory. He then refers to "These" bottles as following imperial design and with Quianlong marks. So imperial marks and designs for both just ivory and also ivory with inlaid lacquer. 792 in Stevens book is Japanese ivory with lacquer panels and a Ch'ien-lung mark. 757 is ivory with inlaid lacquer and a Ch'ien-lung mark but is not said to be Japanese but could it be because neither Kleiner, Stevens, Perry or Moss (in the book mentioned below) mention Chinese bottles as having inlaid lacquer, the only reference is Kleiners one to Japanese bottles.

Hugh Moss wrote Chinese Snuff Bottles from the Collection of the Marquess of Exeter 20 years earlier than Kleiner wrote Images of Asia. The Marquess of Exeter collection is important in having numerous Imperial marked ivory bottles.

There are quite a few polychromed bottles, all of very good quality and some with imperial marks. Could all these very high quality polychromed bottles be Japanese because again no-one refers to any manufacture of Chinese polychromed bottles, only Japanese ones with Stevens speaking to Japanese craftsmen who confirm it.

We know the Japanese were skilled enough to carve in a Chinese style and Moss refers to this in his book. I can also look at illustration 0.7 in his book and say the carving of that (polychromed and with a Ch'ien-lung mark) and say it is uncannily reminiscent of carved Japanese netsuke. Would the Chinese carve an imperial bottle in a Japanese style.

Another thing that makes me wonder if the Chinese stuck to plain ivory is that they consider ivory as second only to jade as a material so why would they disfigure it by covering it in lacquer or polychrome.

Ah, the things that go through my mind when I'm walking my dog.

I can't say much about your Thai bottles other than I like them and no mistaking the Schrenger lines on them.

Regards, Adrian.