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Shandong bottle

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Author Topic: Shandong bottle  (Read 2321 times)
Mat
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« on: January 14, 2017, 10:07:01 am »

Hello once again,
Am I correct that this is a Shandong bottle? And do I see right that the inscription is a date, December 1905? Neither 1845 nor 1965 seem likely in my eyes... The size of the bottle, without the new stopper, is 8.2 cm. Thank you for any information!
Regards,
Matthias


* SD1a.jpg (76.54 KB, 679x1134 - viewed 29 times.)

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* Sd4a.jpg (76.52 KB, 679x1134 - viewed 19 times.)
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:33:39 am by Mat » Report Spam   Logged

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forestman
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2017, 11:34:03 am »

Hi Matthias,

I'm going for my first ever try at this and saying 1905 from the style of the painting and bottle which fit with other examples on The Snuff Bottle Collector site of that period.

Regards, Adrian.
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Mat
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2017, 01:56:14 pm »

Thank you very much, Adrian! To identify the painter will be dificult or impossible, right?

Matthias
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George
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2017, 02:32:59 pm »

Love these style Shandong bottles Matt... I use to have several, and regret letting them go.

I will need a second opinion to confirm, but my guess is Lesan painted.

Congratulations Smiley

 
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forestman
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2017, 03:24:17 pm »

George,

I would agree in looking on Bill's site, antique bottles by type, IP with Peking overlay, 2nd row, 1st on left.

Similar bottle, same change of scenes in each panel, same painting style, same treatment of the leaves on the trees, same treatment of still life. That bottle signed LeYuan but thought to be painted by a contemporary of his, possibly LeSan.

Regards, Adrian.
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2017, 03:40:17 pm »

Matthias,

The bottle I mentioned is said to have a lacquer overlay (as some earlier ones did) as opposed to a glass one, do you fancy testing yours ? It should be immediately obvious if it is lacquer.

Regards, Adrian.

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George
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« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 09:03:22 pm »

Matthias,

The bottle I mentioned is said to have a lacquer overlay (as some earlier ones did) as opposed to a glass one, do you fancy testing yours ? It should be immediately obvious if it is lacquer.

Regards, Adrian.



All of these type of overlays that came from the Boshan glass factory have the enamel overlay. I can see it here on your bottle as well.. I have never handled on these bottles from Boshan factory that has true glass used on the overlay.
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Mat
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 02:35:30 am »

Thank you George, I am convinced that you are right about Lesan being the painter, compared with other bottles by him the painting style is the same and the subjects too! In fact I had thought of him on my own, too, but I do not feel "expert" enough to be sure. Adrian, my bottle has no lacquer applied, it is, as George said, enamel overlay.

Regards, Matthias
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Mat
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2017, 06:51:50 am »

I read in another thread that some believe that Lesan and Bi Rongjiu are the same person? What do you think of this theory? Some works of the two are indeed very similar in style and subject, but generally Bi Rongjiu signed bottles seem to be of better painting quality?
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 08:23:06 pm »

Mat

This is a theory put forward by a Chinese collector/dealer friend, and I can't dispel it for the following reasons:  Le San bottles are first dated 1893-1895 (said to have started in 1890, but oldest I know of is 1893, which coincidentally is the time Bi Rongjiu is said to have started painting).  I own a dozen Le San or so, probably several more if I count unsigned ones, or studio / alias signed. "作与青竹轩 "Painted in green bamboo studio or Changbai Shanren).  I also have hardly ever seen a Le San dated past 1895, one below from 1904, but some say he stopped in 1908).  The subject matters and painting styles are the same, and the quality evolved.  Le San had terrible calligraphy at first, then got a bit better, and then just topped out. 

The oldest Bi Rongjiu (I own 10) I have is dated 1897, and his painting style could be tops, if he put his mind to it, and his calligraphy got better and better, if he was paid / commissioned enough to do so. One example: 

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay/bi_rongjiu.htm

Here is one showing his calligraphy skills by 1901:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2014/snuff-bottles-from-mary-george-bloch-collection-part-iv-hk0524/lot.135.html

Le San's animals were terrible initially (particularly birds), but by the time Bi Rongjiu got good, he did ok on them, especially on horses and monkeys....

To prove my point about how both were bad with birds, look at this Bi Rongjiu:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/19748818_rong-jiu-signed-snuff-bottle

And here is a Le San from 1904:

http://www.artnet.com/artists/le-san/snuff-bottle-uZgS6yMNcxiyKlTEYibkEA2

So yes, they could very well be the same person.  I DO personally think they are, but Steven disagrees with me so far.  The reason I put this post together is to post more evidence.  Both names may have been used at the same time by the same person, which is also not unusual.  We may never know for sure, but there are indeed a lot of similarities and too many 'coincidences'.  If not, then Le San is the older and earlier of the two, and the he may have been Bi Rongjiu's teacher, which conflicts with the stories about Bi Rongjiu, about how he started and was the founder of the Shandong school.  The history of how Bi Rongjiu got into the trade is too well documented as well as the fact he was self-taught.

By the way, all the glass overlays on Bill's site are in my collection (and about 30 more middle period overlay bottles not shown on Bill's site).  Although now I have strayed from modern bottles in general, and only collect middle period now, they show the evolution of Shandong IP overlay over time, and prove that Shandong never stopped producing bottles, even through turbulent times in Chinese history.  I may eventually weed out the unsigned or undated ones but I will keep the dated / signed ones to create and preserve a timeline.

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay_2.htm
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 11:00:43 pm by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2017, 08:47:21 pm »

Matthias,

The bottle I mentioned is said to have a lacquer overlay (as some earlier ones did) as opposed to a glass one, do you fancy testing yours ? It should be immediately obvious if it is lacquer.

Regards, Adrian.



All of these type of overlays that came from the Boshan glass factory have the enamel overlay. I can see it here on your bottle as well.. I have never handled on these bottles from Boshan factory that has true glass used on the overlay.

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay/nichols.htm

George,

This is a glass overlay painted bottle from 1902, they actually did use real glass overlay too, not only enamel...
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:33:09 pm by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2017, 09:31:42 pm »

Thanks so much for that info Pat! I had wondered about the similarities and now it makes perfect sense!
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Cathy
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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2017, 10:29:46 pm »

Dear Pat,

     That bottle is a gem! Although, when I tapped onto the info below about its source, I coveted her great grandfather's full length Chinese quilted coat even more!  Grin Wink
Truth is, I'd love to have both.
Best,
Joey




Matthias,

The bottle I mentioned is said to have a lacquer overlay (as some earlier ones did) as opposed to a glass one, do you fancy testing yours ? It should be immediately obvious if it is lacquer.

Regards, Adrian.



All of these type of overlays that came from the Boshan glass factory have the enamel overlay. I can see it here on your bottle as well.. I have never handled on these bottles from Boshan factory that has true glass used on the overlay.

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay/nichols.htm

George,

This is a glass overlay painted bottle from 1902, they actually did use real overlay too, not only enamel...
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Mat
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2017, 05:18:25 am »

Thank you so much, Pat, for taking the time to explain and for sharing all the information, this was extremely interesting!
Mat
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Joey
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2017, 05:52:36 am »

Dear Pat,
 
 Your info on Bi Rongjiu  and Lesan is very interesting. I don't know if it is the same person, or not, but it sounds quite convincing. Could Lesan be an 'art name' or something similar, for Bi Rongjiu?
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Mat
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 06:03:42 am »

I do not know enough about snuff bottles to know the habits of their painters, but using "nicknames" is very common in Chinese painting, so I guess the snuff bottle painters will have done it, too...
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 05:19:41 pm »

George,

This is a glass overlay painted bottle from 1902, they actually did use real glass overlay too, not only enamel...

Thank you Pat...
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Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2017, 06:43:54 pm »

Welcome George !

Yes Joey I have long suspected LeSan was the first alias used by Bi Rongjiu as would have been Green Bamboo studio and Changbai Shanren in addition to the much less common Xing Ting.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 11:40:59 pm by Pat - 查尚杰 » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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Mat
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 03:32:24 am »

Thank you once again and one last question for you all... I can identify most of the objects in the scene with the vase, the censer, the go board and the scroll, but what are the round white items in the blue bowl on the stand? I have no idea what that could be...
Regards,
Matthias
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:33:57 am by Mat » Report Spam   Logged
samsonlzj
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2017, 05:30:50 am »

Thank you once again and one last question for you all... I can identify most of the objects in the scene with the vase, the censer, the go board and the scroll, but what are the round white items in the blue bowl on the stand? I have no idea what that could be...
Regards,
Matthias

Hi Mat,

They seem like buns to me.

Best,
Samson
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