Friday Fun Bottle

[Wattana]

Dear Joey,
    I am both amazed and impressed at this ace-in-the-hole revelation! I thought you said you were not good with delicate handiwork. 

Adrian,
    Very interesting. I know next to nothing about the equipment needed to hollow out an object such as a bottle, or that agate egg.
    Can you explain what a 'tube' drill bit is - is it a cylindrical drill bit with a hollow centre, as used for core drilling?
    If it is straight-sided how do you reach the inside of the shoulder (the part immmediately below the mouth opening)?
    And what is a Dremmel, if is is not what is shown in your photo?

Tom   

[forestman]

Dear Joey,

Wouldn't it be amusing if one of the bottles you made was posted on the forum having been bought by a member.

I had better get to work if I want to catch you up. I need my little dog to find more deer bones out in the forest as material for me as you recognised the agate egg far to quickly.

Regards, Adrian.

[forestman]

Hi Tom,

Yes, core drill or tube drill so hollow inside although as I used a 3mm drill bit there is only a small hollow inside. As there is no neck on the bottle it is easy to work into the shoulders but I also have bits with small ball ends that can work into the shoulders better.

A Dremel is a genetic name for a multi tool, a hand held device where the enclosed motor is what you hold. There are a wide range of bits that go in them for cutting, polishing etc.

It's quite obvious on looking into modern agate bottles I have that they were hollowed with something like the ball drill bits. There are obvious ridges between where the ball has been worked into the material which would take some time to smooth out to achieve anything approaching the smoothness achieved by the hand polishing and hollowing of genuine bottles.

Regards, Adrian.

[Wattana]

Thanks Adrian,

So the ball-headed drill bits I have seen illustrated in some snuff bottle books is still the best way of hollowing out a traditionally shaped bottle? I thought there might be some innovative new way to do it.

From your description of Dremmel that is obvioulsy NOT what is in your photo. How would you describe what you have?

Tom

PS: I believe "One Grumpy Man Studio" has a better ring to it in Chinese. 

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Adrian,

      In Ireland, I have lots of antlers from my Sika Deer herd. Would you like some?
      Re. the bottles surfacing; they could. In fact, a dealer from Forest Hills NY offered the Hornbill Beak bottle for US$2,000, dated as early 20th C., at a convention, in 1982 (NYC) or 1984 (LA). He'd not risked bringing it into Canada for the 1983 Toronto convention.

     I had cold-forged the sterling silver spoon, and scratched JBS on the bowl. A friend who'd visited me in Jerusalem, recognised it, and announced that it was my handiwork; the dealer denied it. I suggested they look at the bowl of the spoon, and my initials were identified.
   
     Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,

Wouldn't it be amusing if one of the bottles you made was posted on the forum having been bought by a member.

I had better get to work if I want to catch you up. I need my little dog to find more deer bones out in the forest as material for me as you recognised the agate egg far to quickly.

Regards, Adrian.

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Tom,

    I made the bottles when I was 16 - 18. I was still cold forging sterling silver and 18K gold spoons by hand using 2-3mm thick soft wire, as recently as 15 years ago.

    Today I do more embroidery and sewing, of Torah covers and Torah wrappers, than carving.

     I have a lot of Sika Deer antlers, and have been toying with trying to reproduce those wonderful Viking chess pieces found many years ago in Scotland, but have not yet done anything.

     Best,
Joey

[George]

Hi Tom,

Yes, core drill or tube drill so hollow inside although as I used a 3mm drill bit there is only a small hollow inside. As there is no neck on the bottle it is easy to work into the shoulders but I also have bits with small ball ends that can work into the shoulders better.

Everything you describe about core bits and Dremel type bits and how they are used make perfect sense to me Adrian.

I remember your post showing both the bit with the ball, and one other tool with sort of a hook shape for the shoulders..

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3484.msg49259.html#msg49259

Your electric motor set up also makes perfect sense..

Do you find it necessary to add water to the piece while your working it ?  Also, for the exterior, what type of abrasives and attachments do you like to use.. Belts, discs, etc.. ?

This is a great topic, and would really enjoy getting together with you and experience making one..

[George]

Here is my Friday bottle which again was the result of simply needing a bottle fix 

20th, famille rose in the form of an old medicine bottle..

If someone can help with the poem and additional script, that would be great 

I am getting ready to gift this to my Grandaughter...

If someone can help with translating the poem, that would be wonderful...
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3361.msg47539.html#msg47539

[forestman]

Dear Joey (Master of the Beaks),

Somewhere in my house I have a good sized piece of deer antler but seeing as I've had it for about 10 years and never used it I feel it might be best to turn down your very generous offer and let you hold onto your supplies for when you start on the chess set.

Regards, Adrian.

[Wattana]

(Master of the Beaks),

Great moniker Adrian,

In view of the antlers I wonder if it should be modified to 'Master of the Beaks and Racks'..... 

Tom

[forestman]

Hi Tom,

I'm not sure Joey has any interests in "Racks" 

I don't know how I would describe what I have. I bought it as a polisher but with all the attachments it is capable of far more than just polishing. A static motor with 2 output shafts ?

Regards, Adrian (One grumpy old man studio).

[George]

Hi Tom,

I'm not sure Joey has any interests in "Racks" 

 

[forestman]

Hi George,

I do use water which makes the drill bits last longer and makes the cuts smoother. Using a grinding wheel dry leaves any edges very rough.

I have just experimented with the wide collection of various bits that I have in terms of working on the outside of bottles but haven't found anything ideal yet. I was hoping you would be the one to suggest the best methods for polishing stones to get a good finish on them.

I might have to try a metal wheel and carborundum powder to try and emulate how they were originally worked.

Regards, Adrian.

[George]

Your double spindled motor is great.. With the right attachments, you can do like this video's shows. The blade used to cut out the desired size from the piece of rough stone is a standard 6" or 8" diamond blade.

This video shows some kind of very small abrasive wheel on the end of the spindle. I do not know what that might be, but would have to be nickel or diamond.. They also use what looks like some kind of nickel or diamond tipped bit attached to your spindle used to hollow out the interior as well for shaping the bottle. If we could figure out what kind of spindle attached ( diamond or nickel ) bit that is, that would be nice.. That link gives us an idea.. And I would be running quite a little stream of water between the bits and stone. Just need to figure out how to attach to your spindles. That entire set in the previous link only consists of grits 120-150. That is just a starting point, so need to find something like these that offer the remaining grits.. I have looked a little but no luck yet..

Must have a good selection of them, interchanging from grit to grit to finish the outside of a bottle if a guy ever expects to be able and have a decent polish..  There is no way to get around the necessity of going through quite a series of grits/abrasives starting with course and working up to finer grits before the surface will be ready for polish.  Starting with 80 grit, then 120, 180, 260, 400, and finish with a 600 and even 800 grit.. For jades it would have to work all the way up to about a 1200 or even 2400 diamond abrasive before can polish.

There are some good 3M and scotch-brite products that should also be able to use for grinding steps once the bottle is shaped with the more course diamond/nickel grinding tools.. Plus you would be able to get into the shoulder/neck area. I have used their product for silversmithing, but not for working with stone. I think they would be a-ok.. But again, it is necessary to start course and work up through the finer..

[Wattana]

George,

Thanks for the great video clip! (This should really be moved into the hollowing thread.)

Interesting that the mask handles are finished before the lapidary even starts on the hollowing.
But like the Mongolian videos, the later stages of interior hollowing are skipped completely - really frustrating!

Tom 

[forestman]

Hi George,

It's very frustrating but I can't see any of the video clips that have been posted recently, I just get a black square.

From what you are describing I think it may be the clip that shows someone working an amber bottle and I have bits shaped like the one he used to hollow the interior although my shafts are a shorter length and I have yet to find any like that one that are long enough to hollow down to the base. I think they used a ball type bit on the video of the hollowing of IP bottles.

I have seen bags of various graded polishing powders so might have to order some and experiment. I assume the pitting we can see on the surface of genuine old bottles is due to there not having been ways to accurately grade the abrasives they used and the occasional larger bit of grit ending up being forced into the surface of the bottle.

Regards, Adrian.

[George]

Hi George,

It's very frustrating but I can't see any of the video clips that have been posted recently, I just get a black square.

Regards, Adrian.

I am experiencing the same problem Adrian.. Something I have not been able to figure out and fix..

To view the video, right click on the black box and select "properties".. Copy and paste the url into your browser..

[George]

I assume the pitting we can see on the surface of genuine old bottles is due to there not having been ways to accurately grade the abrasives they used and the occasional larger bit of grit ending up being forced into the surface of the bottle.

Regards, Adrian.

Pitting would have to be simply low grade material..

[Wattana]

Adrian and George,

I have never come across any genuine older bottles with the type of pitting you describe. Whereas they may not have had the selection of abrasives available today, they certainly had time to cover up any pitting!

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Adrian,

      As long as "Master of The Beaks" is not a veiled reference to my Judaism (I know it isn't - just using Lefty Liberal virtue  signalling!  ), it should be "Master of The Beak"! I only did the one.

     Re."Racks". I DO love "racks" :  racks of lamb! 
Best to all,
Joey