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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 21, 2018, 01:38:48 pm
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The last bottle I'm showcasing before 2016 ends

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Author Topic: The last bottle I'm showcasing before 2016 ends  (Read 497 times)
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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2016, 10:11:23 am »

Dear Samson,
you have the bottle in your hands and you are in the best position for judging it, although you did not answer about the signs of age, if you see them or not. The bottles that I show are not mine, just taken from ebay for showing what I meant. Not meant to show how an overlay Yangzhou bottle should look. I was just talking about finishing, quality etc. What do you mean by "The execution of the carving on the brown overlay bottle you showed is too detailed and prominent to be Yangzhou"? Do you mean that the relief of the carving is too high? If so, I don't agree, and you can clearly see in the direct comparison here below that the relief of that bottle and that of your one are the same. Look at the two tao tie masks. It is true that the carving in general looks higher, but that is just because of what I wanted to show you, the quality of the carving. Smoothest and better polished carving gives deepness to the scene.
Anyway, that's my point of view.
Changing the matter, I will be very surprised if the Auction house will tell you the provenance. Unless previously stated in the description, as a merit of the bottle if it belongs from a famous collection, here they refuse to give such information.
Kind regards
Giovanni



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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2016, 10:51:01 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Happy New Year!

Well, to explain myself better, what I'm trying to say is that the way the subjects have been depicted in the brown ones are over detailed and too "rich" in my opinion. After all Giovanni, I think sometimes it's a matter of opinion, we may have different views towards the same subject matter. That makes sense for the discussion... Wink

Regarding provenance, I see what you mean, if it had a famous provenance that would give merit to it when it comes to selling it, it would have been stated at the time of sale. Well I don't know then, I decide to have an ask and see what kind of result I might get.

Best wishes for the new year,
Samson
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2016, 12:01:57 pm »

Dear Samson,
happy New Year to you too and everybody here!!
I take the opportunity to show my only Yangzhou bottle, I don't remember if I ahve already shown it here on the Forum.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2016, 02:04:17 pm »

I've been following this discussion, and wanted to point out a few things about Samson's bottle that made me believe it is genuine.

The first is the firing grit that you can see in the transparent colors. I see this grit in the blue and pink in almost every Yangzhou bottle I've seen. I'm not sure if it's presence is due to impurities in the glass or the firing process, and would really like to see more discussion about it.

The other is the milkiness of the glass. The white of the glass in the ebay example is very obviously more opaque and bright white and doesn't have the slight translucent milky quality of the genuine article.

And then there is the color of the overlays. All of the overlay colors in the ebay example seem really off.

Just my observations, and I may be wrong, but wanted to put these things out there for further discussion.

And by the way, what do you think of this one just listed on ebay for 17,999?! haha
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-Antique-Chinese-Peking-Glass-Snuff-Bottle-RARE-Five-Colors-Coral-Jade-Pearl-/191595724449?hash=item2c9bfebea1:g:Ao0AAOSw7ThUpWnh


 
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2017, 12:59:31 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Your Yangzhou bottle is lovely. Thanks for sharing it. Well, without going into the details, I reckon that the finishing and overall profile of yours is similar to mine. At least I don't see any major difference. In my opinion, they are both genuine Yangzhou school and may be compared against each other. While those you posted earlier are way off and shouldn't serve as the reference in this case.

I feel happy for you too for having such a decent Yangzhou overlay bottle as well.

Dear Cathy,

I see what you mean, and yes, I too wish to see further discussions on that. But the eBay bottle you showed is again wayyyy off for a genuine Yangzhou. The colors are too vibrant and the motif is too thick. And for its price it's possible to get a fine and genuine Yangzhou bottle in tip-top condition.

Best,
Samson
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2017, 03:19:37 am »

Dear Cathy and Samson,
I know that my English is not so good, but really I don't know how to let you understand what said and repeated: please read the text! I never say that the bottles that I show was meant as reference for Yangzhou bottle, never. I repeatedly say that they was posted as a way to better explain what I meant talking about finishing, carving, etc. And even more, I said that all them are modern. I really think that I have been clear. So I don't understand why you continue telling me that those are not good references for Yangzhou bottles. Please read again and try to understand. Sorry for the tone of this answer but because of my not perfect English I am quite sensitive to this matter, I am always afraid of being not understood.
Giovanni
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2017, 05:56:36 am »

Following along with great interest..

Here is a wonderful topic created by Steven with lots of relevant information..  Excellent read !
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.0.html

Especially this particular post.. Steven speaks in part to what Giovanni is trying to describe.
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.msg8946.html#msg8946
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 06:03:25 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2017, 05:58:40 am »

Dear Giovanni,

Me bad, my message may have given you an impression that I've misunderstood your point. Sorry for bringing things little too far. No offence. As we Chinese say, 以和為貴 - harmony is precious.

Back to the discussion. Yes I understood that you're referring to the carvings. I saw the difference between the samples you showed and mine in terms of carvings, as I've pointed out earlier. As far as I'm concerned, under comparison, it's even more obvious that mine is a Yangzhou bottle. What I mean is that the attributes and characteristics of a Yangzhou overlay stand out even more (regardless of which is "higher" in quality).

I didn't mean to say that you brought out those samples as a standard of Yangzhou style, it's just an extra point I minded to raise from my observation of the pictures.

Hope I've made myself clear.

Best wishes,
Samson
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2017, 06:46:03 am »

Following along with great interest..

Here is a wonderful topic created by Steven with lots of relevant information..  Excellent read !
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.0.html

Especially this particular post.. Steven speaks in part to what Giovanni is trying to describe.
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1054.msg8946.html#msg8946

Great stuff George! Thanks for sharing! I like the comparisons made there. Would love to know how would Steven analyze mine here.

Here's the Yangzhou of mine that I shared some time ago: http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3059.0.html

Best,
Samson
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2017, 10:53:33 am »

Dear Samson,
no problem at all, you are welcome.
Dear George, talking about Steven, he is not posting since a while. He must be busy somewhere, hope that everything is fine with him.
Giovanni
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2017, 07:38:55 pm »


Dear George, talking about Steven, he is not posting since a while. He must be busy somewhere, hope that everything is fine with him.
Giovanni


Yes indeed.. He is busy and traveling. He hopes to be able to spend more time on the forum soon.
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« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2017, 05:44:35 pm »

Hi Samson,

Sorry I missed the thread during my off time. To me, the bottle looks right to me altho not the top quality Yangzhou bottle.

1st of all, the colors are right which is key factor for me to judge a old bottle or a new bottle, the new artificial colors made now days are different from the colors from the old days.
2nd the shape and tao tie masks look right, the overall shape are perfect matched with the 19th yangzhou overlay, so are the mask ring, the master rings of the modern bottle tend to be made complicated than the simple style of the old bottle, one example from Giovanni shared the modern overlay has a very typical modern mask ring.
3rd, the black dots from the body is a good sign of 19th bottle, the glass quality from 19th is not as good as the bottles from 18th, we can normally see some black dots here are there, but that matches the 19th date.
The last one is carving, somehow the carving is not the best example of 19th bottle, some of carving is not perfect polished,  and some area is kinda flat looking instead of being looked more 3d dimensional, but we still can be at same spots the technique being used are the old techniques.

So overall I think the bottle is decent 19th Yangzhou bottle. Its just my thought tho.

-Givoanni

Love your Yangzhou bottle, yours seem have better quality on the glass and carving. very nice example. Congratulations!

Steven
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« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2017, 06:51:06 pm »

Dear Steven,

Thank you for posting your detail analysis on my Yangzhou.

I had the same thought as you regarding the Tao Tie mask rings. And thank you for pointing out that the tiny black dots on the glass are an indicator for 19th century glass. This I've never known in the past. Certainly learning something new and interesting!

I agree that the carving on Giovanni's Yangzhou does look superb and beautiful. No doubt a kind of bottle desired by many! Hopefully someday I can add a Yangzhou like that into my collection!

By the way Steven, I personally feel that the color combination of my bottle is quite rich (which I think is rare as I've never seen such colorful but well balanced color scheme on a Yangzhou before). In that regard I think it's one of a kind. What do you think? Do you reckon this is one of its merits?

Best,
Samson
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« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2017, 06:48:33 am »

Dear Steven,
 
     Welcome back. I hope all in the family are well.

     I assume that you were comparing 19th C. to 18th C. glass as an exercise, NOT in context specifically with Yangzhou Seal School. Since Yangzhou bottles date from ca.1820 - 1880.
There are no 18th C. Yangzhou bottles, at least that I know of.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2017, 09:39:54 am »

Dear Geovanni and Samson,

I read with much interests the discussions between both of you from ' last year ' to this ' new year ' !!
As collectors, we are always caught between the words " old " ( as to antique ) and " beautiful ".
Of course, old pieces are not necessarily beautiful to look at or have excellent craftsmanship. Likewise, there are new works of art that are excellent and beautiful.

I always reminded myself of these three Chinese words when it comes to any object of art :

' 真 - meaning authentic, real ;
' 精 ' - meaning par excellent, exquisite, outstanding craftsmanship ;
' 美 - meaning beautiful, elegant .

Like Giovanni, when I hold a piece of snuff bottle in my palm, I never exclaimed, " what an old piece ! "
or " what an antique  ! ". It is always, " what a beauty ! " ( in many cases, unfortunately or fortunately,
my wife was not with me !! ). And we know how difficult it is to ascertain if a snuff bottle is an antique
( anyway, early 20th century pieces, bottles of the Republic era, are now antique in 2017, isn't it ? ).

We are always very happy if we come to own a bottle which is old, as to antique, and it is at the same time
very pleasing to our own eyes - especially it is within our budget ! Such a piece is usually taken home secretly
just in case our better half should see it ( and there are times I surface it together with other pieces my wife
already knew ... )

May we continue our journey of enjoying the snuff bottles in 2017 !

Regards,
Inn Bok
 



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« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2017, 11:44:04 am »

Inn Bok,

Lovely description of the Chinese evaluation of a work of art! Thank you for sharing!



 
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2017, 04:18:21 pm »

Dear Inn Bok,

      Great to hear from you! And well written and interesting material.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2017, 09:14:37 pm »


 Such a piece is usually taken home secretly
just in case our better half should see it ( and there are times I surface it together with other pieces my wife
already knew ... )


Inn Bok
 





Thank you for that post describing the meanings to you Inn Bok.

Funny also is how familiar I am with what Giovanni tells about holding a snuff bottle in hand. I always say the exact same,  "what a beauty", as compared to " what an old piece" or " what an antique ".  Some times I may say, "outstanding" !

I also understand all so well the sneaking in of a bottle and just mixing it in with the others  Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2017, 04:39:18 am »

Dear Inn Bok,

You are very right! 真,精,美 are the very attributes we serious collectors always aspire and hunt for tirelessly! But to me, age is also an important attribute as I have a special sentiment and liking for objects with history, things that have seen thousands of events. To me, collecting and appreciating a piece of antique is like owning and exploring a piece of history. It can tell us a lot. It's a cultivation of some sort. That's why collecting snuff bottles also sparked my interest for Qing history.

Inn Bok, We have something particularly in common here: "Such a piece is usually taken home secretly just in case our better half should see it ( and there are times I surface it together with other pieces my wife already knew ... )" Wink

Best and let's enjoy every treasure in our collection and may we find more to add into it in 2017!

Samson
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