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November 20, 2017, 12:59:14 pm
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Yong Shoutian Try 3

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Author Topic: Yong Shoutian Try 3  (Read 1031 times)
cshapiro
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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2017, 11:13:15 am »

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I read a comment by Cathy that the 'Masters' didn't repeat subjects.

That is ridiculous.

Joey, apparently you didn't read the whole sentence, because that is not what I said and I still stand by it.

Quote
It seems like the more of a master an artist was, the less he repeated subjects. For example Ding Erzhong repeated bottles very rarely, the Ye family produced bottles for over 50 years with 4 artists and still didn't repeat a theme to the extent that this warrior bottle has been repeated. We had a hard time finding the women in the window scene on Samson's bottle.


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Cathy
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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 11:39:15 am »

It's not hard to see from the examples of bottles posted on here that YST repeated these warrior bottles over and over.

I found a very similar bottle to my YST that was auctioned on Live Auctioneers in 2013 said to depict a famous battle during the 3 Kingdom period. Where one of the main horses on my bottle was white the same horse on the other bottle was brown and white but in exactly the same stance, the same figures held different weapons on each bottle but otherwise were very close in stance and clothing and numerous other similarities. You could almost suggest he copied one from the other but just changed some details so it was never an exact copy.

It may make it easier to value his bottles as they could be so similar but that fact must detract from their value as well.

Regards, Adrian. 
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cshapiro
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2017, 11:49:10 am »

I agree Adrian. It's all about supply and demand. Since you can easily find one of these warrior bottles that makes them not as valuable.

On the other hand, the YST bottle on the right of yours is not as easy to find.

My whole premise has been that attributing these warrior bottles to YST devalues his work, and I think that's a shame because in my opinion he is one of the middle period artists who should be revered.
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Cathy
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« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2017, 05:08:05 pm »

I'm adding pictures of the signatures on the two bottles and closer detail of horses on each bottle.


* P1010423.jpg (67.8 KB, 640x407 - viewed 11 times.)

* P1010425.jpg (70.48 KB, 416x480 - viewed 9 times.)

* P1010424.jpg (80.04 KB, 451x480 - viewed 9 times.)
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forestman
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« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2017, 05:36:05 pm »

Thought I would post the pictures then add the comments.

The first picture shows what is considered the true YST bottle signature on the left in the accepted older script as 3 vertical characters. The right signature is the student bottle, a messy version of the first signatures characters with the signature spread across 2 rows of 2 vertical characters, so appears to have an extra character added for some reason.

The YST bottle seems to me to be dated as Wu-hsu meaning 1898 which was the year YST was considered to have started painting although this bottle is a larger one, 9.75 cm high.

The second picture is detail of the YST bottle, the third picture detail of the student bottle.

Differences are;

The weapons on the YST bottle are not coloured with bronze as are the student bottle.
YST doesn't seem to paint people in side profile as the student likes to.
YST's rocks are painted shaded with numerous short brush strokes, the student uses longer lines.
The tack on YST's horses are different to the students. The tack over YST's horses noses show less bands than the student bottle. YST uses 2 bands at the rear of the horse, the student uses one and his are shaped whereas YST's are plain.
The front and back legs of YST's horses are different to the students who paints them as more bent.
The eyes of YST's horses use fewer lines than the students.

The examples of YST bottles on Bills site show bottles signed with the different middle character for YST and the horses on these are different to either of my bottles. One difference is the reigns and tack are painted in one solid line as opposed to two separate lines as on my bottles.

My student bottle shows a lot of similarities to the Unamed student bottle Cathy (I think) posted on the other YST thread.

So I'm with Cathy in saying there are a lot of bottles attributed to YST that show quite different styles suggesting different artists.

Regards, Adrian.
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cshapiro
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« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2017, 06:13:19 pm »

Great observations Adrian!

I wish I could find more information!

Joey I think we are really on the same page if I just explain myself better. What I mean is that the warrior bottles have a production like quality and quantity that I don't see with other masters.

There were some middle period artists cranking out work rapidly and with the same theme to feed their families - like Bi Rongjiu and Le San. But the difference (at least to me ) is that they are still recognizable as the artists work.

These warrior bottles seem mass produced from another artists hand.

I would like to hear your opinions on this. Wink

 
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Cathy
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2017, 10:54:21 am »

Cathy,
 
     Now I understand what you meant, and yes, I agree.
The way you wrote it, I understood that you were claiming that 'masters' did not repeat subjects, which I know is totally wrong. They did repeat subjects and even directly copy previous works, based on consumer demand.
And again, I'm talking about the commercial artists who comprised the majority of IPSB artists.
But I do see your point.
Joey

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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