General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Samson shared this beautiful Ye Zhongsan landscape bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 16, 2018, 03:25:52 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Jingdezhen Snuff Bottle

Poll
Question: XVc8C
PyJDhZPk - 0 (0%)
MEfwIcQaUwrusGoATK - 0 (0%)
FuAyGdszRBu - 0 (0%)
CfNskNfkTONV - 0 (0%)
KcNnYAWXTduDIU - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 0

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Jingdezhen Snuff Bottle  (Read 432 times)
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« on: November 12, 2016, 07:25:30 pm »

Late 18th to Early 19th, soft paste, dark underglaze blue, crackled glaze, with a scene that I am still searching.

Certainly the most fragile porcelain bottle I have ever handled. Really thin wall. 

3" tall with a wonderful ivory spoon of which I am still undecided about a stopper to attach.

Any help with the scripting and scene would be great.

Enjoy .. !


* JINGDEZHEN1.jpg (118.5 KB, 493x614 - viewed 41 times.)

* JINGDEZHEN2.jpg (117.53 KB, 467x609 - viewed 28 times.)

* JINGDEZHEN3.jpg (112.87 KB, 461x578 - viewed 31 times.)

* JINGDEZHEN4.jpg (135.04 KB, 546x593 - viewed 24 times.)

* JINGDEZHEN5.jpg (123.91 KB, 591x559 - viewed 22 times.)

* JINGDEZHEN6.jpg (119.78 KB, 541x610 - viewed 22 times.)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 04:54:02 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

Social Buttons

samsonlzj
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 530


Beautiful things deserve appreciation


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2016, 11:50:50 pm »

Dear George,

An interesting B & W bottle! I remember seeing another B & W bottle with the exact same subject in a U.S. local auction recently, or perhaps it's the same one?... Anyway, to help you with the translation, "德勝門" means Gate of Triumph and "旗旗德勝" should mean triumphant in every battle, I stand to be corrected here. See, in modern days "得" instead of "德" is used, "得" means to get, while "德" means virtue. The ancient Chinese somehow used "德" in this case instead of "得". It worths a note that the two characters have the same pronunciation...

Hope you are getting my explanation here... Smiley

Best,
Samson
Report Spam   Logged

Samson - a young new collector desiring knowledge
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 12:50:20 am »

Thank you so much Samson.. !

Yes, I also am pretty sure that this is same bottle that I saw not so long ago up for auction.. Can not recall where, but am pretty sure it is the same one ..  I remember even commenting to Susan Page about it at the time it was up for auction.. As she had posted a picture displaying several bottles, and there was one just like it..
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 04:08:33 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 03:55:25 am »

Dear George,

An interesting B & W bottle! I remember seeing another B & W bottle with the exact same subject in a U.S. local auction recently, or perhaps it's the same one?... Anyway, to help you with the translation, "德勝門" means Gate of Triumph and "旗旗德勝" should mean triumphant in every battle, I stand to be corrected here. See, in modern days "得" instead of "德" is used, "得" means to get, while "德" means virtue. The ancient Chinese somehow used "德" in this case instead of "得". It worths a note that the two characters have the same pronunciation...

Hope you are getting my explanation here... Smiley

Best,
Samson

I have learned with help of two collectors that 德勝門, Gate of Triumph is located on the East side of the ticket gate floor of Deshengmen Watchtower, a city gate that was once part of Beijing's Northern city wall.

The theme appears to be "hunters returning".

First pic below is reconstruction after the war, and the second pic is about 1900, before reconstruction.

If you stumble onto this topic Friedrich and Harr... Thank you both !


* gate1.jpg (71.94 KB, 690x533 - viewed 5 times.)

* gate2.jpg (30.8 KB, 690x379 - viewed 7 times.)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 04:40:59 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5191



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 07:29:48 am »

Hi George,

The theme looks like one I have seen on several blue & white porcelain and IP bottles - a city gate with hunters returning, often with a camel in tow.

From memory, the inscription over the gate on other examples was either East or North Gate, so Gate of Triumph is one up on the rest! 

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1642



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 11:32:47 am »

George

Here is one I have in my collection.  I too saw the bottle you posted and considered bidding on it, but never got back to it.  My initial impression was that it was a very good example of this motif (which is pretty common), and the blue tonal quality appears to rather good on your bottle. 

A translation from Richard on my bottle:

Quote
The name on the gate literally means Victorious Gate and the inscription on the second photo, wishing you a triumphant battle.   For your reference.

Charll
 
Photo 1-
Photo 2-

Here is the complete view of the bottle [Height is 7.3 cm] -  Soft paste blue and white porcelain with some staining and chips along the foot rim.  Thanks for any and all help.   Charll


« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 11:37:24 am by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2911



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 02:42:09 pm »

Dear Charll and George,
I must say that I don’t like these two bottles. I may be totally wrong, since Charll has much more knowledge than me on snuff bottles, but I will not be surprised if these two bottles are very recent. My perplexities belong from the style of drawing, never seen before, not related to any style/period. Everything is strange to me, the horses, the hats, the faces, the dresses, legs, shoes. And the blue too is strange, it is similar to the Japanese blue, almost no shades.
Dear Joey, have you ever seen something similar?
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2016, 04:21:05 pm »

Just to clarify... My bottle was a newly listed buy it now via eBay..  Different than the bottle Samson and I are talking about that we all seem to remember seeing up for auction earlier this year..

Charll,  our bottles themes are indeed the same... Thank you for sharing it for comparison.

Giovanni.. , Here is an archived Christies listing showing a similar bottle from the same group of Jingdezhen bottles .

Also, not to speak for Joey, but since I am typing away, he shows some examples within Search of a Dragon that can include, #'s 84, 35, for best similar bottles to compare..
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2911



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2016, 04:30:46 pm »

Dear George,
the Christie’s and Joey’s bottles are totally different from your and Charll’s bottles. The only thing that those bottles has in common with your ones is the craquelure. I am not questioning that, never said that; I am questioning the whole decoration. Compare the dresses, the faces, the feet, everything.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2016, 05:29:44 pm »

Dear George,
the Christie’s and Joey’s bottles are totally different from your and Charll’s bottles. The only thing that those bottles has in common with your ones is the craquelure. I am not questioning that, never said that; I am questioning the whole decoration. Compare the dresses, the faces, the feet, everything.
Kind regards
Giovanni


I stand corrected ... Sorry Giovanni ..

Charll... Is your bottle as thin walled as this one ?
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8880


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2016, 07:38:07 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

     No, I've not seen anything similar, but have not looked, since they don't appeal to me.
Best,
Joey


Dear Charll and George,
I must say that I don’t like these two bottles. I may be totally wrong, since Charll has much more knowledge than me on snuff bottles, but I will not be surprised if these two bottles are very recent. My perplexities belong from the style of drawing, never seen before, not related to any style/period. Everything is strange to me, the horses, the hats, the faces, the dresses, legs, shoes. And the blue too is strange, it is similar to the Japanese blue, almost no shades.
Dear Joey, have you ever seen something similar?
Kind regards
Giovanni

Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2016, 03:46:52 am »

Here is one from within Bob Stevens book dated Late 18th to Early 19th.


* bobstevens.jpg (190.35 KB, 574x811 - viewed 18 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2911



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2016, 04:21:15 am »

Dear George,
that is indeed of the same style, and due to the provenance, it must be correct. I apologize for having raised doubts, I never saw them before and you will agree that they are completely different from most of the b&w bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 04:53:20 am »

Dear George,
that is indeed of the same style, and due to the provenance, it must be correct. I apologize for having raised doubts, I never saw them before and you will agree that they are completely different from most of the b&w bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 

Oh gosh Giovanni.. No problem..

Heck, I am the last person to ask about porcelain any way !   Cheesy  I actually did not give the style as close a look as you did.. I did not think it odd. But I realized in short time that the style is indeed completely different as it took searching the internet, and looking through several books before I found this one..
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2911



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 08:56:52 am »

Dear George,
I am sorry if I give you a false reason for worrying; I should have kept my mouth close by the simple fact that Charll has a similar bottle, and he knows what he does. Nevertheless, still after having seen Charll and Bob Steven bottles, if I will stumble on a bottle of this type I will not but. I don’t like them. You can see in Joey’s “Dragon” book that there are no bottles with that style of decoration, and it is hard to find one; I have never seen before. What I don’t like is the lifeless, almost monotone blue, and the style of drawing, really far from the good quality b&w bottles. Look for example at the horses, quite childish, and the “rigidity” of the dresses, they are not fluent.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2016, 12:26:58 pm »

Look for example at the horses, quite childish, and the “rigidity” of the dresses, they are not fluent.



I understand .. I had not seen a really thin wall like this before and find it very special.. The bottle is so fragile !  I can only guess that there may have been some extra skill to firing such a thin porcelain, but then I do not know that for sure..
Report Spam   Logged

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1642



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2016, 02:17:26 pm »

Quote
My perplexities belong from the style of drawing, never seen before, not related to any style/period. Everything is strange to me, the horses, the hats, the faces, the dresses, legs, shoes. And the blue too is strange, it is similar to the Japanese blue, almost no shades.  Giovanni

All,

In the last 10 years I've likely seen 6 to 8 of these bottles with the same body style and motif.  Though there has been noticeable differences in painting detail and tonal quality among them, the design is the same.   Many old established collections have had one and I thought Robert Hall had one for sale sometime back.  Anyway I remember seeing them from time to time in dealer's collection sale catalogs and at auction.

Charll
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 02:19:42 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8880


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2016, 03:48:13 pm »

Dear All,

    I remember the Bob Stevens bottle, and i thought it was Guangxu or even Republic period.
I reckon the same with this one. But I agree with Giovanni - I didn't like Bob's example and my opinion has not mellowed since 1978!  Roll Eyes Grin
Best to all from Taipei!
I arrived at 04:00am this morning (after 8+ hrs. sleep on the flight), and will go to the National Palace Museum after I do my morning prayers.
Best to all,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10427



View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 07:54:55 pm »

George
  My initial impression was that it was a very good example of this motif (which is pretty common)

So if the motif is common, then there is not any connection that can be made to think the same shop did these ?

I am curious about as Giovanni pointed out, the unusual style for the figure paintings. Can we think there is a connection to believing the same painter/shop painted these hunter scenes with the "unusual style of figures" no matter if they are painted on normal wall thickness bottles like Bob Stevens, and like this current eBay listing, or if this style figure painting is on thinner walled ( slip process ? ) bottles like Charll's and mine.

Or am I trying to connect a path of dots that are not there ?


* hunters.jpg (88.74 KB, 318x494 - viewed 15 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2911



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 01:10:43 am »

Dear George,
that is exactly what I thought about these bottles. I am referring to your one, Charll one, and now that one on ebay. They are really similar and too much different from everything else. They must have a common source. Look for example at the bird that I am posting here below. Never seen a bird like that on a Chinese piece of any sort. The same must be said for those “sword type” long feet.
Dear Joey, I fully agree with you about Bob Steven’s bottle. 18th/early 19th century? Most probably late 19th/early 20th as you said.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* a.jpg (13.84 KB, 313x248 - viewed 4 times.)

* b.jpg (47.95 KB, 610x404 - viewed 4 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal