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Can somebody help to situate this bottle?

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Author Topic: Can somebody help to situate this bottle?  (Read 231 times)
rosegl
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« on: October 27, 2016, 06:05:57 am »

Dear all,
I'm coming back to a query which did not find a satisfying answer in my opinion. George's first reaction was to situate it in France (Quimper). But it bears a mark (Guangxu?) and I didn't find any similar object in the publications about Quimper pottery.
Can somebody confirm or reject my guess in reading the mark?
The pouch-form and the rather square, large mouth remind me of a — certainly older — snuff bottle from the Bloch collection part IX (n° 36).
Is it porcelain or pottery? I don't know. I thought it could be a medicine bottle, but did never see similar ones (I must confess I'm not an expert). Does somebody have a guess about its provenience?
Thanks in advance
Georges


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* SB 154 5.jpg (37.21 KB, 308x652 - viewed 8 times.)
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2016, 04:29:11 pm »

Gorges,

Is it possible to get a cleaner/clearer picture of the mark?  My speculation from what is shown is that it appears to be European in origin copying a Chinese motif (similar example, European Willow Ware).  The bottle shape and particularly the crackle glaze type appears to be more European.  My initial thought upon viewing is that it is a pill bottle.  Would need a first hand close inspection to tell if it is pottery or a porcelain.  Looking at the interior with a light (i.e., flashlight) may aid in answering this last question (ex, finger pressed molded in two halves would show an interior seam and residual finger indentations on the interior body.  Or if slip pour molded the interior would be very smooth and uniform, and the clay particle size would be very fine.) 

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Steven
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2016, 05:43:18 pm »

Hi Georges,

The mark on the top neck is Guangxu mark, but I suspect its a recent bottle .

Steven
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rosegl
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 10:02:14 am »

Thanks to all of you.
Steven: I never claimed it's from the period. By the way, the mark is very blurred (il's not a matter of the picture).
Charli: The interior is smooth and glazed, no visible sign of having been assembled of two halves.
George: I like your hypothesis of "willow pattern".
Maybe a second item (bought at the same time at the same place) can give further hints. Very different in size, the colour and the blurry mark are similar.
Does this help? Where and when could these bottles have been made? In modern China? Or in Europe (with the purpose to simulate a Chinese origin)?


* SB 160 1 Kopie.jpg (55.15 KB, 263x567 - viewed 26 times.)

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* SB 160 top.jpg (45.4 KB, 386x397 - viewed 12 times.)

* SB 160 UNTEN.jpg (39.27 KB, 425x424 - viewed 8 times.)
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Joey
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2016, 12:33:36 pm »

Dear Georges,

    I would have said with the second, Chinese and possibly modern, and with the first, the same. Hope that helps (I'm really bad over the screen; much better 'live'  Grin Roll Eyes).
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2016, 02:33:31 pm »

Dear Georges,

    I would have said with the second, Chinese and possibly modern

I think so too Georges...
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rosegl
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 02:58:55 pm »

thanks, guys, for the confirmation of a contemporaneous Chinese origin. But why did a modern producer choose an end of 19th c. instead of an "nobler" mark?
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Joey
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 04:26:43 pm »

The fakers are realising that Qianlong marks etc., are not going to be
believable. Guangxu has a chance of being believed.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Steven
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 05:46:08 pm »

Hi Georges,

The second bottle is not even painted, if you look closer , you can see cross hatch on the light blue color, which means its printed. I knew it because I bought one of those before.Smiley

Steven
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rosegl
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2016, 03:38:00 am »

Thanks, Joey and Steven. I'm still learning a lot from this Forum. Both bottles were part of a lot I bought more than ten years ago because I was interested in another one. I suspected the second Guangxu mark to be apocryphical, was unsure about the first, and finally classified both under "curiosa". Now I decided to know more about them. I didn't know B&W decors could be printed...
 Smiley Georges
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Wattana
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2016, 09:11:07 pm »

Dear Georges,

On my first visit to Hong Kong in 1978 you could find this type of bottle selling in street markets. They were heaped up on a tray like apples. 

Tom
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Tom
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rosegl
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2016, 09:38:53 am »

Steven and Tom:
what would you argue in the case of the following bowl with a similar style of painting (and a Guangxu mark)? I'm just trying to learn. Do the lighter blue zones  also have cross hatch?

Georges


* Guangxu bowl.jpg (50.27 KB, 581x278 - viewed 16 times.)
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Steven
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2016, 11:21:54 am »

Hi Georges,

This looks like a Guangxu period bowl to me, certainly painted and no cross hatch at all.

BTW, the cross hatch only appears on  the early printed wares since the printing technique is very low at that time, I have seen some of ware made in Europe with same technique back to early 20th C,  for the current technique, you won't see any cross hatch any more even on the printed wares.

Steven
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Joey
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2016, 04:04:37 pm »

Dear Georges,

     I magnified the bowl to the highest I could, and saw no evidence of printing as opposed to painting in the technique. I would say it is a very nicely painted bowl and presumably from the Guangxu period ( though I did not see the mark, but assume you identified it correctly). I would have dated this bowl ca. 1850-1900, since the style, shape etc., could also have been from the Xianfeng reign or the Tongqi reign.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2016, 05:15:47 pm »

Dear Georges,
I can’t see the cross hatch that Steven is seeing, the pictures are too small, but no doubt Steven is right, the decoration of the second bottle is printed, and may be also that of the first bottle. You should post larger images, of about 800 pixels on the largest side.
About the bowl, I would like to see here too a larger picture, plus a picture of the base. Always post a picture of the base, it is very important for dating a piece. That bowl looks very very strange; what are those two things on the upper left, human figures or trees? If figures, those giants Grin  are really off, never seen that on Chinese ware.
Giovanni
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rosegl
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2016, 04:46:05 am »

Dear Giovanni,
I tried to post larger pictures, but Joey insisted in a resizing...
So here are some more captures of the bowl

http://www.cathy-hunt.co.uk/oriental-antiques/d/chinese-19th-century-blue-and-white-bowl/172246/

and  of the snuff bottles

Georges


* SB 154 2.jpg (126.6 KB, 525x600 - viewed 5 times.)

* SB 160 Kopie.jpg (60.57 KB, 272x600 - viewed 8 times.)
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2016, 08:17:16 am »

Dear Georges,
Joey is right because there are people who takes pictures in high resolution and straight post them without resizing. This means that we have to look at a bottle which is let say 60 mm high by means of an image that is bigger than the computer screen. It is almost the same as being forced to look at a bottle only by means of a microscope; annoying and not useful.
The best way to post pictures is to resize them to a size of about 800 pixels in the largest side, and a weight of no more than 100 kilobytes so to save precious space for the Forum.
Your new pictures are almost the same size of the previous ones, so it doesn’t change so much, but I think that most probably the first bottle too is printed. To be honest, two poor bottles that if were mine I will get rid of them.
I can’t read the mark on that bottle (Steven?) but for sure it is everything made in Transitional style. But then, if you ask me if it is Transitional or not, let me give you a politically correct answer: It is better to not comment a commercial site in public.
“And then Jesus said: Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
Kind regards
Giovanni
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rosegl
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2016, 10:40:47 am »

Dear Giovanni,

as I explained before, they were part of a lot, so I couldn't sort them out. But they became, as we've seen, a good "learning object".
Thanks also for your scepticism with respect to the Guangxu pot.

Best

Georges
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2016, 04:06:00 pm »

Dear Georges,
if you re-read my above post, I said that the bowl is painted in Transitional style, and then I added: But if you ask me if it is TRANSITIONAL.... etc. etc.
I have to apologize, I did not realize that the seller was claiming it as being Guangxu. Be it Guangxu or not, the important fact is that the seller is not declaring it as Transitional, but as a copy of the 19th century, as it is. Honest seller then, I apologize for having not red carefully the text.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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