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Zitan snuff bottle storage box

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samsonlzj
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« on: October 23, 2016, 02:31:17 am »

Dear all,

Does any of us have in his collection snuff bottle storage box like the one shown in the pics below?

It's an interesting piece of accessory I recently came across. It's made with zitan according to the description. The snuff bottles that come with it however don't seem very attractive to me...

Best,
Samson


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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 06:58:34 am »

Dear Samson,
 
     It looks like a type of 'treasure box', but looks metal rather than Zitan wood, from your photos.
I've nothing like it, but would willingly buy it 'empty', or maybe there are other bottles which can be bought with it.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 07:58:33 am »

Dear Samson it really looks Zitan, but probably it is not although it is no doubt a wood cabinet. If Zitan, the cost would be very high.
Kind regards
Giovanni
 
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 10:48:12 am »

Hello All-

This box is the third one I have seen in 40+ years of collecting Chinese art.  The other two were both wood, although I doubt seriously that they were indeed zitan.  Both of the ones I have seen were beautifully carved with dragons and with inlays of lighter colored woods (probably boxwood).  I doubt they were intended for holding snuff bottles but were probably for jewelry or jades as the compartments are too large to hold an average snuff bottle without banging around.  One was sold at Midwest Auctions a few years ago for, if I remember correctly, $30,000.00, in which case it might have been made of zitan.

Best wishes,
Rick
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 11:16:01 am »

Dear Rick (and Giovanni),
 
      Why does the exterior look so silvery? The interior looks brown, but not the exterior.
US$30K for a treasure box? Too rich for my blood... Roll Eyes Grin
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 11:22:01 am »

Dear Joey-

I think that the silvery color in the photographs is the result of light reflecting off the wood.  The ones that I have seen are a dark, rich brown color.  What makes me wonder about them actually bring made of zitan is that they were not very heavy whereas zitan is a very dense wood and even some small objects in zitan have a weight or heft that is higher than expected when handing them.

Best wishes,
Rick
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 02:45:55 pm »

Dear Joey, yes it is matter of light reflection on the surface of the wood, similar to that of metal because Zitan being a very hard wood can have a very smooth surface. Also, it is hard to see the wood grain due to the dark color.
Dear Rick you confirm was suspected. Very expensive if real Zitan, and surely not intended for snuff bottles storage.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 03:58:00 am »

Dear Rick & Giovanni,
 
       Thank you. Now I understand.
       Penny and the late John Ault's 16th C. Sino-Portuguese Merchant's house in Phuket town has Zitan wood floors on the two storeys (stories in Amer.)  above ground level! They are really beautiful.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2016, 09:13:47 am »

Dear all,

Thank you for your sharing and observation. In any case, the treasure box (I prefer to adopt the term Joey suggested as it fits its appearance and characteristics Smiley ) itself is a really interesting piece of craft to me regardless of what material it's actually made of, Zitan or other form of wood or even metal!

Rick, I'm glad to have offered you the third chance to sight it in your 40+ years of collector's life! Cheesy

For me, this is the second time I am coming across something like this, I had yet joined the forum the first time I saw it. This set of pics are the most detailed ones I have seen taken for this kind of treasure box. Indeed, from the pics its surface does resemble metal finishing at a glance, but thanks to the quality of the pics, the subtle woodgrains can be seen in the interior, so I think we may at least conclude that it's core is wooden, although it still remains doubtful what exact wood it is. The color seems dark enough to be Zitan, but again, Giovanni has got a valid point here, it would be very expensive if it is... I also share the same doubt with Rick that it may not have been intended for holding snuff bottles in the first place due to the loose space in the compartments if average sized snuff bottles are placed in them. Roll Eyes

By the way Joey, I'm trying to imagine how elegant and magnificent late John Ault's Sino-Portuguese Merchant's house is with two stories of Zitan floors! It must have cost a great fortune! Shocked

Best to all,
Samson
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2016, 03:42:30 pm »

Dear Samson,
 
      I understood that the Aults had bought the house in the late 1970s/early 1980s relatively cheaply, and that the contractor who was restoring the house for them wanted to glue down carpetting on the wooden floors, and linoleum on the stone/marble [?] ground floor surface!  Of course he was not allowed...  Grin
     
      I wonder, on reflection, if there was not originally a padded interior in each 'cavity', which would have cushioned the snuff bottle or other treasure. I called it a treasure box because in late Oct.2014, after the HK convention, I went to Taipei, and saw a superb show, Treasure Boxes of the Qianlong Emperor, at the National Palace Museum.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 07:21:42 pm »

Dear Joey,

It's good to know that the contractor did not eventually do what he had in mind. Or else he would have done an unamendable mistake and found himself blamed for as long as these great woods are being appreciated by people... Speaking of which, was he out of his mind?! Shocked

We're these what you saw at the National Palace Muesun of Taipei back in 2014?

https://www.npm.gov.tw/exh96/imperial_collection/subject01_zh-tw.html

Exquisite!

Best,
Samson

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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2016, 04:03:20 am »

Dear Samson,

I followed this thread with interest. That is a beautifully designed box, whether or not it is made of Zitan wood.
I see that each drawer has a vertical divider, which can be removed by sliding out, so as to make a larger compartment. I have a Chinese medicine cabinet which does the same. I have kept the dividers in place for my CDs, but removed them in the drawers where I store larger items.  Wink   

As for Zitan, there are a lot of myths concerning this wood. For a start, there is no universal agreement on its proper scientific definition. The Chinese name ( 紫檀 ) can be applied to several different woods. Most botanists have settled for one of these two:

1. pterocarpus santalinus - 紫檀(赤檀、紅檀) - 'purple sandalwood'

2. pterocarpus indicus - 印度紫檀(青龍木) - 'black rosewood' 

But if you check Wikipedia, you will find a few other possibilities. In other words, the jury is still out.

I once attended a lecture on Chinese furniture at Bangkok's Siam Society. It was being given by a young 'expert' from Christie's Asian Department in London. Among the numerous slides she presented were some of furniture made from Zitan wood. At the end of her talk I asked her to tell us a little more about this highly valued wood. She proceeded to say that it was worth more than its weight in gold, and commanded such high prices because the wood had always been extremely rare and sought after in China since ancient times, and the tree from which it comes (quote) "is now totally extinct"!   Shocked

No doubt this statement was intended to further inflate the prices of pieces being sold by her auction house.

Tom
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2016, 12:41:38 pm »

Dear Samson,

     Yes! These were on display then.
Personally, I think the contractor would have torn out the valuable timber and replaced it with cheaper, and sold the zitan wood, but I might be too suspicious... Roll Eyes Grin
Best,
Joey


Dear Joey,

It's good to know that the contractor did not eventually do what he had in mind. Or else he would have done an unamendable mistake and found himself blamed for as long as these great woods are being appreciated by people... Speaking of which, was he out of his mind?! Shocked

We're these what you saw at the National Palace Muesun of Taipei back in 2014?

https://www.npm.gov.tw/exh96/imperial_collection/subject01_zh-tw.html

Exquisite!

Best,
Samson


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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2016, 02:15:02 am »

Dear Tom,

Great to know that the thread had caught your interest! Smiley

Auction houses really wouldn't let any money making opportunity slip away! Well I have no knowledge whatsoever on Zitan wood. Still, I have much reservation over the claim that it's extinct. It's perhaps endangered? Huh

Information can be confusing when there is still no common consensus over the definition of Zitan as you mentioned.

I agree that regardless of what material the box is made of and whether it's antique, it looks artistic and fabulous! And yea, I too noticed those removable divider! What a smart design! Wink

Dear Joey,

Right! You might be too suspicious, but that's a good thing when it comes to acquiring something for your own collection. Wink And it also means you've constantly been thinking! Never stop to raise doubts! Besides, what you thought is not an impossibility... Smiley

Best,
Samson
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2016, 03:21:03 am »

Dear Tom,

The scientific name for Zitan tree is Pterocarpus indicus Willd
http://lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/organisms/details/484
If you are visiting Singapore, this is the only Natural history museum with real dinosaur fossils.

The Christies expert is correct in the saying of comparing this wood to gold although I won't have believed that it is extinct.
Due to the very slow growth, it is simply not possible to have furniture made from Zitan in this modern times.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2016, 03:37:52 am »

Thanks for the info YT. Things are getting clearer for me now.

Best,
Samson

Dear Tom,

The scientific name for Zitan tree is Pterocarpus indicus Willd
http://lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/organisms/details/484
If you are visiting Singapore, this is the only Natural history museum with real dinosaur fossils.

The Christies expert is correct in the saying of comparing this wood to gold although I won't have believed that it is extinct.
Due to the very slow growth, it is simply not possible to have furniture made from Zitan in this modern times.

Cheers,
YT

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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2016, 08:17:50 am »

Dear YT,

    You can have furniture made from Zitan now, if you buy a 17th C. Sino-Portuguese merchant 's house in Phuket town, and tear out the floors...  Roll Eyes Grin
G-D Forbid,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2016, 11:22:56 am »

Hahahaha!.... Cheesy
Good one Joey!

Shabbat Shalom,
Samson

Dear YT,

    You can have furniture made from Zitan now, if you buy a 17th C. Sino-Portuguese merchant 's house in Phuket town, and tear out the floors...  Roll Eyes Grin
G-D Forbid,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2016, 06:41:35 pm »

Dear Joey,

Don't tempt me. Prices in Phuket has been on the decline since under military rule.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2016, 09:40:24 pm »


The scientific name for Zitan tree is Pterocarpus indicus Willd
http://lkcnhm.nus.edu.sg/dna/organisms/details/484
If you are visiting Singapore, this is the only Natural history museum with real dinosaur fossils.


Dear YT,

I did not know you had such good examples of Zitan tree in Singapore. I will look out for them next time I visit.

By the Linnean system of taxonomy the "Willd" suffix to the tree's scientific name simply indicates who is attributed with first identifying the species. I dropped it from my post, as it wasn't relevant. The point remains that pterocarpus indicus has several different 'common' (popular, non-scientific) names, including narra, paduak, rosewood, Philippine mahogany and amboine. Not all of these trees produce the characteristic purple-black colour associated with Zitan; in fact several are distinctly reddish like a true rosewood and will float in water.

Approaching from the other end, items described as being Zitan have been analyzed, and found to not all belong to the Pterocarpus indicus family. There are other woods of near-black appearance which also sink in water, and these are sometimes mistakenly described as Zitan.

It's a complicated topic!

Tom
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