General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Adrian recently shared this wonderful Yan Yutian panelled bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
May 28, 2018, 12:08:37 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Green Monochrome Crackle Glaze Porcelain Bottle

Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Green Monochrome Crackle Glaze Porcelain Bottle  (Read 346 times)
pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 185


View Profile
« on: October 07, 2016, 07:24:58 am »

Dear members,

what are your opinions on the age of this bottle? It has (I think would be the correct description) an apple green crackled glaze. The bottle is flattened and the foot is raised and concave as seen from the photos. The bottle without stopper is 7.9cm high.

The bottle really feels like it may have some age to it. The crackle glaze is a little worn on the back and front as if it has rubbed away over the years from handling or maybe being in someone's pocket. Strangely, there is a wodge of old paper inside that looks like it's nearly rotted away - i can't get it out...

Thanks for any opinions...

Luke



* c3.jpg (200.94 KB, 800x1075 - viewed 72 times.)

* c4.jpg (176.66 KB, 800x1071 - viewed 46 times.)

* c1.jpg (153.31 KB, 800x766 - viewed 47 times.)

* c2.jpg (124.19 KB, 800x735 - viewed 46 times.)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 03:25:01 pm by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke

Social Buttons

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 10:55:29 am »

Looks good for 19th century Luke.. I think you can include monochrome to the description as well..

If it's yours, congratulations !
Report Spam   Logged

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 185


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2016, 12:10:59 pm »

Yep, it's my latest bottle. Good to hear you think it's old George! I updated the thread subject. I'm intrigued to know if it's just paper in the bottle as it looks all balled up but think I may break it trying to get it out, so not going to risk it.

I like porcelain bottles, so would like to collect a few more like this... Smiley
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 03:24:27 pm by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2883



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2016, 02:32:28 pm »

Dear Luke,
to me what is old here are the spoon and stopper. The bottle is not that old to me, at least not 19th century. I base my opinion mainly on the paste ans shape of the foot/base. But before to take my words as definitive, it will be better to hear Charll, because he is more expert than me on porcelain bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2016, 03:39:45 pm »

Dear Luke,

     I love the glaze, but am confused by the fact that the mouth rim is dark brown, but the edge of the glazed foot is white. Why did you  not post a photo of the mouth face on so we could see the mouth and inward?
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10425



View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2016, 04:48:08 pm »

Dear Luke,
to me what is old here are the spoon and stopper. The bottle is not that old to me, at least not 19th century. I base my opinion mainly on the paste ans shape of the foot/base. But before to take my words as definitive, it will be better to hear Charll, because he is more expert than me on porcelain bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni


I want to agree with you Giovanni...  So would like to change my guess of 19th to Early 20th..  I do like the older spoon/stopper very much too !
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2883



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 02:13:46 am »

Dear Joey, George, all,
the rim of the bottle is brown because it is trying to imitate the brown rim of original 18th century apple green ware, which are quite different from this bottle. Here below you see the rim of an original small jar, Qianlong period.
One note about the glaze, which is not real apple green I think. The apple green is made by a layer of transparent (then looking white because of the porcelain below it) crackled glaze, on which there is a further layer of green glaze. This is clearly seen in the second picture here below, of the same jar. Look at the edge of the glaze.
The glaze on Lukeís bottle looks more camellia leaf to me, which has a denser craquelure than the apple green, and it is not so transparent. The apple green looks more ďluminousĒ than the camellia leaf glaze.
It is worth to know that on monochrome ware, (I am not talking about snuff bottles) the base of apple green glazed ware is not green, while it is normal on camellia leaf glazed ware to have the same glaze on the body and the base.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* IMG_1.jpg (83.37 KB, 1000x750 - viewed 13 times.)

* IMG_2.jpg (77.37 KB, 1000x750 - viewed 14 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2016, 02:46:07 am »

Dear Giovanni,

     I must commend you! A whole lecture in a succinct paragraph. And now I understand.
Would you agree with George's revised dating (from 19th C. to early 20th C.), or do you think it is a lot later, but
'furnished' with an earlier stopper, cork & spoon?
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 185


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2016, 03:23:29 am »

Dear all,

Thanks so much for the replies and for the info Giovanni!

Joey - yep was going to explain I think the bottle has a brown glaze/wash around the mouth and then a green glaze on the rest of the bottle. I've also attached another photo of the mouth of the bottle.

Of course I've done a little research too, so here is a similar bottle that the V&A in London has in their collection for comparison:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8997/snuff-bottle-unknown/

And a couple more that are similar in the V&A:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8994/snuff-bottle-unknown/

Also, some info on gotheborg on apple green glaze:
http://gotheborg.com/glossary/applegreen.shtml
Interesting here it says "Generally those pieces with an iron wash on the rim date no earlier than the Qianlong period." I've read elsewhere the iron rim with apple green glaze usually dates to late 19th century, but can't find that link at the moment, so may just be my memory! Giovanni - I've also wondered if this is a true apple green glaze and is interesting to hear that it's perhaps camellia leaf glaze.

There is also a similar bottle to this with a slightly different foot in the book, Chinese Snuff Bottle number 5 by Hugh Moss on page 53. Unfortunately, in none of these references can I actually find a photo of the underneath of the foot. Although it does mention on the V&A bottle that the foot base has a "curved indentation underneath."



* c7.jpg (174.97 KB, 800x1132 - viewed 21 times.)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 03:32:54 am by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2883



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2016, 04:30:04 am »

Dear Luke, you did a good research!
Thank you dear Joey. I think that the bottle is early 20th century, or even end of the 19th. But I repeat once again that I am not so expert with porcelain snuff bottles. Let see if Charll will agree.
Kind regards.
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2883



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2016, 04:47:22 am »

Dear Luke,
on the left an apple green baluster vase. On the right a camellia leaf meiping vase. Both are about 8 inches high. You can see how your bottle is much similar to the glaze of the meiping vase.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* IMG_1.jpg (70.7 KB, 800x708 - viewed 18 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 12:11:52 pm »

Thank you, Luke. Very interesting.

Giovanni, I'm constantly amazed by your information based on study.
I would have compared the glaze on the meiping vase and on Luke's bottle to Aventurine glass!
Camelia Leaf sounds much more impressive...
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1635



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 12:44:41 pm »

All,

Monochromes are not my strong point, but when I first saw this bottle I immediately thought last quarter of the 19th to early 20th century.  This immediate thought was based on the bottle shape and Luke's description (although I cannot see it) of the wear.  If it's an original stopper I would have placed it in the same time period.
  
The stopper appears to be an old coral cabochon (or cut bead) attached to what I suspect is an old ivory or bone button with organic glues used at the time.   The mouth plug of the stopper also appears to be tightly rolled paper.   This of course is only speculation based on what I can see from the photos.  

Lukeís research also bolsters this thought in that it is a good match to the V&A Museum example, and it appears that bottle was donated to the museum in 1905 as based on the museumís numbering system.
 
Though I have no literature to back this statement, Iíve developed the opinion that such snuff bottles were produced and in use by the non-elite classes in China at the time, and many of these were brought back to the US and Europe as the trinkets of that period (1800ís through the 1930ís).

Charll

 
  

« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 12:47:21 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 02:06:44 pm »

Dear Luke,

      If both Giovanni and Charll, as well as George, feel it is ca. 1880-1920, I'd feel that was pretty solid.
Congratulations.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 185


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2016, 04:38:49 am »

Giovanni - thanks for clarifying the correct name for this bottle. Iíd say itís definitely closer to the 2nd vase, so this is a camellia leaf green bottle!

Charll - interesting that you think the bottle was used by the non-elites - I did wonder the same thing myself. The nice thing about this bottle is it appears to have been used in its time and I'd assume for its purpose. Also, I think you are right looking at the mouth plug of the stopper - it is tightly rolled paper Smiley

Joey - thanks. Happy to have this one!
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 05:02:39 am by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Pages: [1]
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal