Click On Globe To View Forum Visitors From Around The World

General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Samson shared this beautiful Ye Zhongsan landscape bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:41:44 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Contact Login Register  

Porcelain bottle on ebay

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Porcelain bottle on ebay  (Read 643 times)
pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« on: September 29, 2016, 02:02:41 pm »

Dear members,

Anyone else was watching this porcelain snuff bottle with a Wang Bingrong mark? There's a similar bottle in the J&J collection depicting a crane also. The mark on the ebay bottle is different to the mark on the J&J bottle and other bottles of his I've also researched. It seems like an abbreviation of his name on this bottle as the seller mentions it is marked "Bingrong" and looks stamped on imo. Apart from the mark, the bottle shape, foot etc all seem in keeping with an older bottle and even the carving is nice - though I think it is not as fine as some of WB's other bottles. Wondering what others opinions are?

Need to scroll down:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-HAND-CARVED-PORCELAIN-SNUFF-BOTTLE-19TH-CENTURY-WANG-BINGRONG-/361735610579?rmvSB=true&clk_rvr_id=1102195607373&nma=true&si=y0aHKVr2MXe2P4FB0m1Dk%252FZDDhA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:05:33 pm by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke

Social Buttons

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 05:13:22 pm »

Dear Brian,

Trust your instinct. When there are one or more doubts then you are correct.

There is nothing wrong with a 'stamped on' mark as that is done when the clay is soft. The real bottles are done this way too.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged
rpfstoneman
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 1655



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 06:25:54 pm »

I was actually bidding on this bottle with the assumption that it was an older reproduction.  It does not have an original Bingrong mark in my opinion, but was a nice older copy.  In a question to the seller it apparently was collected around the 1960's and belonged to a Danish doctor that immigrated to the US.  A number of bottles were being sold from the gentleman's collection, but none of them were overly spectacular.   

Charll
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 06:28:09 pm by rpfstoneman » Report Spam   Logged

Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2016, 06:45:21 pm »

Dear Charll,

This is definitely a 'later' copy and not a good one. The carvings are not fine and the usual three dimensional effect is not seen here.

Maybe the provenance is old but has to be one that dates back earlier.
Look beyond the dirt.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged
Wattana
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 5238



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2016, 12:57:31 am »

Hi All,

I agree with YT. This is a modern copy. I am skeptical that it even goes back to the 1960s.

By the way, a pair of much better Wang Bingrong type bottles were sold at a NY auction 2 weeks ago for hammer price of US$ 1,100.

Tom
Report Spam   Logged

Tom
Collecting since 1972

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2016, 06:15:41 am »

I agree with Tom and YT. Totally modern fake.
Luke, take our advice and stay away from it.
Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2016, 07:14:19 am »

Thanks for the opinions folks - much appreciated!

Dear YT,

Yes, I didn't know for sure, but thought it would be common for bottles to be stamped, but maybe not the case with WB as some marks looked carved in or the stamp is different and without the border we see here. After looking at this one for a while I suspected it was a copy, but still a nice bottle and maybe old. I've also read that WB's porcelains are widely faked/copied.

Dear Joey,

Yep, I didn't bid on this one - was thinking about it at one stage, but decided against after a little research. Is good that you guys are confirming my suspicions. Thanks  Smiley

Here are some real bottles for comparison or in case anyone is interested. The quality here is definitely on another level... as far as I can tell you would expect to pay 15-20,000 for an authentic bottle like this...

Luke




* 35c24762eb.jpg (11.58 KB, 320x412 - viewed 25 times.)

* 47fcd84766.jpg (9.81 KB, 320x412 - viewed 20 times.)

* cd35cdff7d.jpg (8.06 KB, 320x183 - viewed 27 times.)

* 0249a933b5.jpg (13 KB, 320x412 - viewed 26 times.)

* 30edce5b85.jpg (10.25 KB, 320x412 - viewed 17 times.)

* 85c2d10886.jpg (8.29 KB, 320x190 - viewed 23 times.)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 07:17:18 am by pookles » Report Spam   Logged

Luke
YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2016, 08:48:15 am »

Dear Luke,

You are comparing different artist. One is Wang BingRong while the other is Chen GuoZhi.

And I agreed that Chen GuoZhi usually carved his name.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged
pookles
Full Member
***
Posts: 194


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2016, 09:27:52 am »

Doh! Yep my mistake. Similar bottle to my eye, different artist... yeah, the WB bottles do seem to be largely stamped...
Report Spam   Logged

Luke
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2016, 11:03:42 am »

Dear Luke & YT,
 
      I'm sorry, I think both were hand carved, NOT stamped.
Just Chen Guozhi incised his name, and Wang Bingrong did raised script.

Dear Luke,

    I'm glad we were able to help.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10487



View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2016, 10:45:48 pm »

Dear Luke & YT,
 
      I'm sorry, I think both were hand carved, NOT stamped.
Just Chen Guozhi incised his name, and Wang Bingrong did raised script.

Dear Luke,

    I'm glad we were able to help.
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

I agree with Joey.. 
Report Spam   Logged

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2016, 01:36:30 am »

Dear Joey and George,

I beg to differ.

Below are two examples of raised marks of genuine bottles. I have handled a few and remembered them very well. The characters for these types are always very straight, slender and sometimes as HIGH as the base rim. The easiest way to create these characters will be to use a stencil when the clay is still soft and press in.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18260/lot/2041/
http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2004/chinese-works-of-art-n07974/lot.91.html

Cheers,
YT


* Lot2041 Bonhams Mark Stamped.jpg (103.15 KB, 800x621 - viewed 27 times.)

* Lot91 Sothebys Mark Stamped.jpg (64.93 KB, 912x450 - viewed 14 times.)
Report Spam   Logged
YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2016, 01:39:40 am »

Dear Joey and George,

This third example of 'Bingrong shi zuo' is carved. Look at the difference with the other two examples I posted above.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/119/

Cheers,
YT


* Carved Wang BingRong1.jpg (120.26 KB, 800x615 - viewed 23 times.)
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2016, 03:22:42 am »

Dear YT,

     Have you ever worked with porcelain clay before firing?
One can't just "use a stencil when the clay is still soft and press in".  It is not THAT soft. One might use a stencil to mark out the seal characters, but then one needs to use tools (plural: straight and angled blades) to cut away the excess. Which makes the inscriptions hand-made in my opinion.
Of course, we could be differing over semantics...
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey


   
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

YT
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Posts: 1366



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2016, 03:35:14 am »

Dear Joey,

I am not referring to that kind of modern stencil but rather using that term as an easier way to understand.
The thin and protruding characters that looked so fragile. You know what I am talking about right?

You are correct with that way being hand-made of course.

Cheers,
YT
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2016, 11:30:24 am »

Dear YT,

     I fear you are not understanding me.
As I understand the process, the foot is flat, and then cut into by the craftsman, leaving the rim and the calligraphy 'standing' while removing everything else within the thin rim. It is allowed to dry and then glazed and fired.

Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

guest551
Guest
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2016, 05:23:59 am »

Hello all,

I am sorry to come in on this one 'after the horse has bolted', but I have been away for some weeks and this is my first chance to catch up on the threads. 

I am not expert enough to give an authoritative opinion on the snuff bottle in question, but I am and I will in respect to dealing and the antics that dealers use to sell an object.

In reference to the comment "In a question to the seller it apparently was collected around the 1960's and belonged to a Danish doctor that immigrated to the US", What a load of old dribble. Whether you collect snuff bottles, paintings, ceramics or whatever, please, please, take with a pinch of salt what a dealer says about the items history, unless it has some form of verifiable concrete written provenance to back up what is said.

I know a dealer who regularly puts items on ebay and blatantly gives them a totally false provenance. He will buy an item at auction and within a week put it on ebay stating something like it was his grandmothers' and she apparently acquired it from a large country house over 50 years ago. I've even known him to sell modern Australian tourists pieces saying his mother purchased it when she went to Australia on holiday 50 years ago, needless to say she had never even had a holiday abroad let alone to Australia.  When I challenge him on his antics he just laughs at me saying someone will believe it.

I know many dealers at the fairs who brag about the false stories they tell to sell an object.

Even at auction they do it. They will say something on the lines of "supposedly from, possibly a, reportedly being a, from a very old family so it should be okey, and so on.
I have been going to auctions for longer than I care to remember, it has always gone on and quite honestly, it is all nonsense and you have to treat it with the respect it deserves, none.

I recently purchased a piece of Jade from an auction after obtaining a condition report and purchased it over the phone without handling it, simply going by the photograph. When it arrived I carried out certain checks on it confirming it was not jade, Nephrite or Jadeite. I contacted the auctioneer and explained that the description was wrong and to his credit he accepted my evaluation of the piece and offered a full refund. What was interesting was that he told me he was surprised it was wrong because it came from a good seller. This is a good example of how auctioneers will go on what a seller says it is,hoping for the best, because in many cases they simply do not know.

Joey's recent quotation "Respect but suspect" cannot be bettered. Respect an object for what it is, the age, beauty, quality, rarity, price etc., but always suspect anything that is said to aid its sale. 

Provenance, true provenance is worth its weight in gold, but it has to be undeniable.

Kind regards to you all,

Paul
Report Spam   Logged
George
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10487



View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2016, 11:32:33 am »

Nice post Paul...

While I had the book, "Elegance in Relief", "Carved porcelain from Jingdezhen of the 19th to early 20th centuries", I copied most but not all of the pages.

It does mention that potters did engrave and also stamp their works, but I can not find an example within this book, or anyplace else that show works by Wang Bingrong with a mark "in borders" like this eBay bottle.

I think there is also a lack of detailing within the eBay carvings.   
Report Spam   Logged

guest551
Guest
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2016, 01:41:31 pm »

Hello George,

Thank you. I think your research says it all.

The problem is unscrupulous dealers actually bank on people who are collectors, they know they can be a soft touch.

Because my interest is in all Chinese works of art, be it jade, ceramics, furniture, snuffs, glass, bronzes and so on, I simply cannot be an expert on all these items, so all I can do is try to know enough to get by.  When I am unsure whether it's a snide or not. unless it is really cheap, I leave it alone. There is always another day.

If I make only one member think twice before buying, then it's worth it.

Kind regards,

Paul
Report Spam   Logged
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8955


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2016, 03:01:33 pm »

Dear Paul,
 
     Brilliant post! And I also have heard whoppers told about provenance. On the other hand, there is a collector on the Forum who bought almost a whole collection from one of the great collectors of the 1960s - 2000s, Joe Grimberg, with totally superb provenance. But not on eBAY! Grin Roll Eyes

    Best,
Joey
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal