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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
June 22, 2017, 10:28:27 pm
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Unsigned snuff bottle

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Author Topic: Unsigned snuff bottle  (Read 182 times)
cshapiro
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« on: September 16, 2016, 11:16:33 pm »

Hey! I bought this unsigned bottle recently because I really liked the painting. Any ideas on who the artist might be or if it is even a famous artist at all?
It is a mother bottle by the way.



* unknownartist.jpg (118.63 KB, 700x3858 - viewed 34 times.)
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George
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 11:34:36 pm »

This is a warrior painted theme by an artist whom I have never seen paint these themes before..  Lets see what others think, but there is something about the paintings that make me think of Tang Tzi Chuan.. But the deal breaker is that I have never seen a large bottle painted by him..

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cshapiro
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 11:39:12 pm »

Thanks George! How interesting! I love the painting on this. It is so well done. When I place it next to my YST's they pale in comparison.

I did find a warrior in a TZC bottle - see attachment from here:
https://www.ebth.com/items/2096838-qing-dynasty-tang-zichuan-snuff-bottle


* DSC02712 (732x1024).jpg (88.39 KB, 600x839 - viewed 16 times.)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:59:54 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 11:42:01 pm »

Its a very nice bottle and I like the paintings very much !
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George
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 11:46:01 pm »

I think the key is to match the theme on the reverse side to MP artists... We should be able to figure it out.. I will start looking and also for a theme description.. Should be able to find that as well.

I am a bit busy with a little project, so will take a bit..
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cshapiro
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2016, 12:01:05 am »

Thank you! I will do my best too!

Ok, well I think I found a good idea from your blog George!

I think it's Chen Zhongsan based on your photos attached


* blog2.jpg (18.88 KB, 286x320 - viewed 17 times.)

* blog1.jpg (20.3 KB, 286x320 - viewed 19 times.)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 12:13:27 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2016, 12:13:05 am »

I think this side could be from Dreams of The Red Chamber.


* Dreams of The Red Chamber2.jpg (235.76 KB, 996x551 - viewed 9 times.)
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 12:15:23 am »

Beautiful! Looks very much like it to me - it has all the elements of that painting - the dream like clouds, the people inside the window - the wall - it's a very good comparison. I am bad to edit my posts - did you see my guess that it might be Chen Zhongsan?

Oh and in particular look at the similarity between one I found on snuffbottlecollector.com - I put them side by side

The warriors face on the left, the horse's stance, even the way he shaded the horses eyes a slight shade of orange look very much the same to me


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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 01:16:19 am »

I went to Bills site after my last posting, but I missed that one..

You nailed it !  Good job !
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cshapiro
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 01:17:34 am »

How incredible! Very proud to have this one! Thanks George!
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 01:18:02 am »

did you see my guess that it might be Chen Zhongsan?


No, I don't know how I missed it..  Huh

I forgot to add, that yes, and you were correct... Again, good job !
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 01:19:50 am »

Be careful... May have to issue you a detectives badge  Wink
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cshapiro
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2016, 02:03:45 am »

Haha! Thanks! But Steven wants to keep that badge!

There is currently a signed Chen Zhongsan up for auction and it's already quite high with 9 hours to go.
So I imagine mine being not signed hurts the value a lot?

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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2016, 02:53:13 am »

Haha! Thanks! But Steven wants to keep that badge!

There is currently a signed Chen Zhongsan up for auction and it's already quite high with 9 hours to go.
So I imagine mine being not signed hurts the value a lot?



I would have to compare the paintings.. Yours really is nice, and to be honest, your fine to include within your description that it is "attributed to : Chen Zhongsan... Like yourself, those familiar with him will recognize it right away... Honestly, as should have I...
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 04:47:04 am »

Dear Cathy,

  1. What is the height, etc.? Is it over 4 inches high?
If not, please don't use the term 'mother bottle' (although it is not set in stone, that tends to be the minimal size.).
Ideally, DON'T use 'buzz words'. Describing it as a large bottle, with measurements, will be less problematic.
And George said he didn't know of large bottles by Tang Zichuan, NOT that he didn't know of military subjects by TZC.

2. Great example! Congratulations!

3. Well done to match it to Chen Zhongsan. It seems close enough that it should not greatly affect the value, though obviously, it drops it at least 10%. By comparison, having a false name like Zhou Leyuan would drop it more, in my opinion. Although I have fine examples by Yan Yutian and others signed ZLY...  Wink      See #D-7 in Worlds, for example; though it does have Yan's seal.

Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 06:17:15 am »

Dear Cathy,

The drawing is really nice, I just don't like this type of bottle shape.

Thanks for sharing and hope you got a good price for it.

Cheers,
YT
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cshapiro
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2016, 10:08:05 am »

Good morning!

Yes Joey you are absolutely right. I think I enjoy the term "mother bottle" too much and so like to throw that name around. The bottle is exactly 3 inches tall and is a bulbous shape. In the future I will try to refrain from using the term and be more accurate.

YT, sorry for the confusion! My bottle is not for sale, I just bought it. I was referring to another signed bottle by him that is currently at auction. Smiley

I did get an excellent deal on the bottle because it was unrecognized. I see how important education and training the eye is to collecting!

George has an excellent eye on the inside painted bottles!

Cathy
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2016, 08:04:10 pm »

Been reading this thread with interest ... For all who have contributed I confirm that Tang Tzi Chuan has painted in large bottles AND also painted warrior scenes. I have several large bottles by him and one warrior bottle that is 8.1 cm high and rounded.

Also agree that Cathy's bottle is by Chen Zhongsan
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 10:21:20 pm »

Been reading this thread with interest ... For all who have contributed I confirm that Tang Tzi Chuan has painted in large bottles AND also painted warrior scenes. I have several large bottles by him and one warrior bottle that is 8.1 cm high and rounded.

Also agree that Cathy's bottle is by Chen Zhongsan

Thank you for that Pat... !  That is great to know about Tang Tzi Chuan, bottles, and warrior scenes..
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 10:35:30 pm »

Thanks Pat!

Would like to see your Tang Tzi Chuan bottles!

I am confused about the way people write the names and which is the correct way. On snuffbottlecollector.com the artist is written as Chen Zhong San and as Chen Chung San and I am guessing the Chung and Zhong are interchangeable? Since I also see Ye Zhong San and then also see him referred to as Yeh Chung San.

Could someone explain this? I would appreciate it!
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