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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 17, 2017, 10:51:11 pm
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Save some amazing birds for the next generation

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Author Topic: Save some amazing birds for the next generation  (Read 355 times)
AntPeople
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« on: September 13, 2016, 06:04:49 am »

http://zh.buzzhand.com/post_992899.html?from=page&p=00400000&u=2&t=8
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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samsonlzj
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2016, 06:25:27 am »

Yes Pin, this is very cruel. It should raise our awareness. I work in the Court, just today there was a case involving smuggling of 50 odd hornbill skulls... Embarrassed
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2016, 06:36:36 am »

Here is a link to the news:

http://www.top-news.top/news-12185183.html

Attached is a photo sourced from the internet, also included some agarwood...

The case was brought up to our Court today...


* image.jpeg (436.21 KB, 780x558 - viewed 12 times.)
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2016, 08:18:59 am »

Relieved to think I have never owned any hornbill products (although I certainly wouldn't have turned down a hornbill snuff bottle in my earlier collecting days).

With today's knowledge of these magnificent birds I'm not ever likely too.
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Tom
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 10:09:13 am »

Wouldn't buy one either. On a separate note, even though ivory bottles are the most aesthetically appealing to me I wouldn't buy those either. Do others here have the same feeling about ivory? It's a shame, but I feel the only way to stem the flow of these lovely creatures being poached is a complete ivory sale ban. At the same time I wouldn't judge anyone else by their purchases - just feel I should take a personal stand in my own small way!
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 12:54:22 pm »

Dear all,
I fully agree with you, but I think completely useless the total ban, I am referring to proved, authenticated, old pieces. If I find an ivory bottle of the 18th century, which is the problem in trading it? If I buy/sell a chain used at the times of the slaves, am I supporting the slavery? Obviously not.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2016, 03:26:13 pm »

    I agree with Giovanni. I purchased a late 18th C./early 19th C. Hornbill Ivory, ex. O'Dell Collection, at a Paris auction in mid-Dec.2015. I see nothing wrong with that.

     It would not be hard to set up a DNA testing system to prove that an object of ivory or hornbill was pre-1900. Charge me USD 300 or USD 500 to document that my bottle is from before the mass slaughter of Hornbills from ca.1960 to present, simplify the system so it is NOT punitive to those with genuine antiques, and block the dealers in post 1960 material.

     By the way, it is wasteful and hurtful to the biodiversity I think we all want to preserve; it is NOT any more cruel than any other slaughter of wildlife.  Personally, I love beef steak, lamb, venison, goose, duck, etc., etc. Anyone else who does, or who wears leather (shoes, belts, coats, etc.) should not be condemning the slaughter as any more cruel than that carried out for food, clothing or furnishings.

     And it is a lot less cruel than the mass slaughter of innocent human beings by ISIS, Hamas, Jabhat Nusra, Moslem Brotherhood, Boko Haram, that Moslem terrorist group in the southern Philippines, etc.

  Best to all,
Joey

     
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 04:15:58 am »

I suspect investing in antique ivory simply drives the trade of the illegal ivory industry. New ivory that is being made into various objects and being passed off as antique. If it was illegal to sell any ivory there would be no loop hole where new ivory could be passed off as old. But, I think what Joey says regarding DNA testing is a better solution rather then an outright ban. I'd rather have a healthy elephant population then own an old ivory item if it was indirectly contributing to poaching or the illegal ivory trade no matter how much I loved it. Of course others have different opinions and I respect that Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 04:45:44 am »

I am still feeling a tinge of guilt for having bought this bottle in the 1990s although I have since sold it and gone for confession.


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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 09:35:09 am »

    There are objects made of elephant ivory going back over 5,000 years. So I see nothing wrong in enjoying even modern objects made of elephant ivory, as long as the animal was killed humanely and legally.

    In parts of Africa, there are also too many elephants, to the point that human beings as well as other wildlife are being squeezed out by the elephants.
    In other parts of Africa, elephants are in danger of extinction. With DNA testing, which can now be done without destroying the object, one can prove where the ivory came from, and whether the item is more than or less than, 100 years old, etc.

     A major problem is that the CITES people are 'true believers', and are against ALL ownership of ivory, antique and modern, and whether it affects illegal killing of elephants and other animals today, or not. So they make it very hard to get CITES certificates.

     I know because a dear friend, a Thai princess, gave me a tiger claw mounted in 24K gold, from a tiger shot in 1870 by her grandmother's uncle, His Majesty Rama V. We tried to get get a CITES cert in Thailand without success. I subsequently found out that even if you have full documentary evidence, including photos of the object from before 1950, it is not easy and sometimes never possible, to get a CITES cert. The late Hilde Schonfeld had a German made piano from ca. 1880, which her family had to leave in Germany in 1938. In 1990, the piano was returned in Germany, and she tried to get a CITES cert for a piano with ivory keys made and documented in 1880. She NEVER got it before she passed away.

    So, make it MUCH easier to get a CITES cert for an object with a valid claim, issued by people whose job it is.  And from the job those who make people who own validly obtained materials feel like they are murderers or child molesters.

    I support the eating of meat, the use of leather, wearing fur, and enjoying antique and modern objects of Ivory and other endangered species, so long as the killing was done humanely and legally.
    And anyone who eats ANY animal protein, wears shoes or other articles made of leather,  but is against the ownership of Ivory, Hornbill, or other materials from animals,  is simply being hypocritical, in my opinion. And that is modern materials.
I'm not even talking about antique material from animals. Antiques and antiquities made from these species are part of Human culture going back at least 5,000 years.

    While saying that, I 'LOVE' Al Gore, who will fly on his private jet all over the world, to tell us that we should not fly frivolously and should not use cars because of the 'carbon footprint', and has gone from being a measly millionaire to being a billionaire, based on his 'selling'  the lie of 'Human-caused global warming'. What a guy!  Roll Eyes
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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