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September 26, 2017, 02:52:49 pm
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Peasants/Farmers and Scholars Garden

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Author Topic: Peasants/Farmers and Scholars Garden  (Read 1279 times)
Pat - 查尚杰
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2016, 10:52:49 pm »

My opinion is that this is a modern painted  fake in a glass bottle made heavy from ingot to mimick rock crystal
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 03:25:37 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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George
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2016, 04:52:35 am »

Here is a pretty good comparison where I could blow it up nicely from an archived Bonhams listing showing the same cracking ( shrinking ) of the paint. Caused from same combination of age and the water color being applied on an non roughened surface .. Also can see the similarities to what Steven mentioned about the not so well defined bamboo strokes.



* example1.jpg (385.93 KB, 1028x756 - viewed 23 times.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 03:27:13 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2016, 09:07:38 pm »

Got to thinking about what Joey pointed out about the edges of the rockwork looking wrong..

I am also more use to seeing these painted differently. But after browsing a few large garden examples, I think the artist painted this contemplation stone in the style of some much larger garden rocks like the attached.

Beautiful rocks !


* contemplation rock1.jpg (259.91 KB, 719x624 - viewed 17 times.)

* contemplation rock2.jpg (173.84 KB, 640x480 - viewed 12 times.)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 03:27:25 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

Joey
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« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2016, 02:37:44 am »

Dear George,
 
    I wasn't referring to the size, but to the style of the rocks. I have a bunch of bottles and paintings with this subject. On NONE of them, do the rocks or foliage look like that on this bottle.
    I am still with Pat on this bottle. Sorry.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2016, 03:30:54 am »


    I am still with Pat on this bottle. Sorry.


No worries Joey... We will not always agree..

I do know that you were talking about the style, not the size. We are just not seeing these paintings in the same way..

One of these days something similar will pop up for comparison. 
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« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2016, 09:13:24 am »

Hi George,

Just FYI I bought this sellers other two inside painted bottles, and one of his jades (the gray and white one). It seemed to me that the overall quality of the lot was excellent - I had never seen anything like that black and white jade he had and may never see the likes again at least not on ebay! And I have kicked myself every day since that auction for not getting it!

And so the quality and age of everything else made me think the inside painted bottles were also old which is an assumption I have to stop making!

To quote Sherlock Holmes, "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

I'm not so sure about the inside painted bottles I got either, and plan to post them in another thread at some point.

 Wink
Cathy


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Cathy
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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2016, 11:01:05 pm »

Hi Cathy,

Sherlock Holmes was probably not thinking of snuff bottles when he made that statement, but his words are very apt, and should be engrained on the minds of all collectors!   Wink

Tom
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George
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2016, 03:02:05 am »

Speaking of Sherlock Holmes.. 

A fellow collector separate from the forum made the following observation about how the paintings on this bottle can be associated with longevity.

(1) Two old men.
(2) Bamboo for vitality and longevity
(3) Basket, an attribute of Lan Caihe, one of the Eight Immortals who grant longevity
(4) Chrysanthemum, a symbol of longevity because of its health giving properties
(5) Rock, a natural symbol of longevity (shoushi)

I thought a pretty cool observation..
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2016, 08:52:10 am »

Dear George,

When I saw this bottle it reminded me of the old Japanese scroll caricatures. I am posting a caricature. Look familiar?

The Japanese were always poking fun and this picture seems to be an over-exaggeration of the two men's plight.

The begger is also one of the immortals - Li Tieguai. And here's an interesting line from wikipedia about him: A vapour cloud emanates from the gourd, and within it is the sage's hun (soul); which may be depicted as a formless shape or as a miniature double of his bodily self.

Wink


* bakemono_zukushi_10.jpg (294.74 KB, 640x779 - viewed 5 times.)
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Cathy
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2016, 10:20:10 am »

One of the things that struck me about the clothing the two men are wearing.. Looks like  Japanese folk fabric called boro

I think the fellow you posted a pic of is called Yume-no-seirei ("dream ghost").

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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2016, 10:32:36 am »

Hey George - found an interesting read about the rules of begging and different types of beggars in this online book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=CUcdH6opOlcC&pg=PA399&lpg=PA399&dq=chinese+two+beggars&source=bl&ots=UNUHmVZfNw&sig=9nBRl0r4oazVvehNV-TEeD1Btnk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBhqCB__DOAhWGMSYKHaU0BC4Q6AEIOTAI#v=onepage&q=chinese%20two%20beggars&f=false


9. Falling Lotus petals. Two beggars, wearing colorful clothes and caps, paint their faces with rouge and powder and carry bamboo staffs with holes drilled into each segent and filled with a few copper cash. While begging, they sing and dance, swinging their arms and legs, spinning around, and jumping up and down as if they were mad. Those who do not have colorful clothes often make do with ordinary rags.
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2016, 11:06:01 am »

Hey George - found an interesting read about the rules of begging and different types of beggars in this online book:


Who would have thought there are so many differently labeled beggars..  So many rules and regulations to begging !

Beggars also carry a variety of utensils such asglazed bowls, bamboo baskets and canes for chasing dogs away and self defense.
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2016, 11:10:39 am »

Yes, quite enlightening read isn't it? haha
Begging appears to have been a business taken quite seriously with strict rules.
The one that killed me was the beggar who arrived at your door and hammered a nail into his head until you gave him money!
Don't imagine those type of beggars had a long life span!
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2016, 11:35:24 am »

Street criers. These beggars, carrying willow staffs and baskets, roam the city streets and lament. They are mostly old and weak.

We can see the one beggar is carrying a bamboo stick, but the other stick looks rather to be made of solid wood . Willow perhaps, and he is a Street crier type beggar.

Also, here are images showing the different types of beggars as described in the book

Good read and thank you Cathy Smiley   
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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2016, 09:13:44 pm »

Here is a pretty good comparison where I could blow it up nicely from an archived Bonhams listing showing the same cracking ( shrinking ) of the paint. Caused from same combination of age and the water color being applied on an non roughened surface .. Also can see the similarities to what Steven mentioned about the not so well defined bamboo strokes.



Just want to add one more pic for an 80 year old bottle just to show one more time the cracking/shrinkage of paint over time..


* paint1.jpg (149.74 KB, 511x586 - viewed 10 times.)
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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2016, 10:46:04 pm »





Who would have thought there are so many differently labeled beggars..  So many rules and regulations to begging !
 

Their are so many government controlled requirements that begging sure seems like it was a full time job. I get the impression that although poorer than others within their community, they did participate within the community just like any other community member.

Almost could have added begging as a fifth profession to the existing four if it were not so lacking in being "Honorable"  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2016, 11:02:38 pm »

Hi All

The baggers clad is thought to be a well structured and organized society with well established leadership roles since history.... In many novel, they are descript as a society capable of doing espionage, waging wars and uprise, sabotaging etc.... They are also the KongFu masters in street fighting skill, and the skills were only pass from generations of beggars leaders to the next that take over the leadership roles.

It's kind of like the mafia.... But they are usually descript as the good guys in most stories...

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2016, 02:00:27 am »

Hi All

The baggers clad is thought to be a well structured and organized society with well established leadership roles since history.... In many novel, they are descript as a society capable of doing espionage, waging wars and uprise, sabotaging etc.... They are also the KongFu masters in street fighting skill, and the skills were only pass from generations of beggars leaders to the next that take over the leadership roles.

It's kind of like the mafia.... But they are usually descript as the good guys in most stories...

Pin

Well I take back what I said about appearing "less honorable".  Sounds like a good, respectable, and even honorable life to me ..  They really should have recognized beggars/begging as a fifth honorable profession !
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2016, 03:15:28 am »

In Kong Fu movies Geroge..... Hahaha Grin Grin Grin

But as a matter of facts.... in the Tang and Song Dynasty.... They are much more organized then most people think they would be .....Most likely the fore fathers of organized crime... Anyway, the first emperor of Ming Dynasty was a beggar before and some of his generals that helped him to overthrow the Yuan Dynasty are friends he made there...

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

George
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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2016, 08:05:21 am »

There are four standards for Gongshi stones.

The first standard was shou, a reference to the slimness, delicateness and overall shape of the stone.
The second standard of early collecting was zhou, which referred to the creases or wrinkles on the surface of the stone.
The third standard was lou, a reference to channels or caves.
The fourth standard was tou, naturally occurring perforations that expressed the openness of a stone and allowed light and air to pass through. A completely different looking rock that explains the flat surfaced edging to the stone on the bottle.



This fourth standard ( lou ) is specific to Lake Tai in Jiangsu Province.  Interestingly, Beijing, and Shandong Province, and Lake Tai are all just a hop, skip, and jump from each other.

It seems fair to believe this artist was influenced to paint subject matter of beggars from Beijing, and Gongshi stones that are specific to Lake Tai because he witnessed both first hand as a result of living in the area.


* Lake Tai.jpg (259.3 KB, 658x761 - viewed 6 times.)
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