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October 19, 2017, 02:46:59 pm
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Peasants/Farmers and Scholars Garden

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Author Topic: Peasants/Farmers and Scholars Garden  (Read 1301 times)
George
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« on: August 30, 2016, 12:53:43 am »

The front shows two peasants/farmers, or perhaps two blind peasants with their sensing stick/cane. They are so poor that we can see the one has his toes hanging out of the one worn out mismatched shoe.  I have never seen a painted bottle showing patches sewn together like this to make clothing before. I like the detailing, and color palettes for this side very much.  All painted within a 1" x 1 1/2" area of this panel..

The reverse shows what I believe is a scholar's garden. The chrysanthemums are not potted so I think likely a garden.. And no scholar's garden is complete without an extra large contemplation rock ( Xiao shan meaning little mountain ).

The goldish/brownish color is unfamiliar to me. It can not be seen in the pic, but there is some light blue mixed in areas like the heads of the chrysanthemums, and also mixed in with the contemplation rock.  It can be seen a bit within the chrysanthemum at the very top left.

Both side panels are also painted with chrysanthemums.

2 5/8" tall...

I may have overpaid, but bid on it to keep for myself.

Open to suggestions for an artist, because I am at a loss...


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« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 12:59:39 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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Wattana
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2016, 01:00:55 am »

George,

I can't comment on the artist, style of painting, or the obviously extreme poverty of the two figures. But is the bottle quartz crystal? I ask because I see what looks like an iridescent patch near one shoulder.
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George
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2016, 01:07:25 am »

But is the bottle quartz crystal? I ask because I see what looks like an iridescent patch near one shoulder.

Although it is heavy like would expect for rock crystal, I am still unsure...
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AntPeople
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2016, 02:36:43 am »

Nice bottle George....

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

Joey
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2016, 03:08:46 am »

Dear George,

     My first reaction was "modern fake". Since I really screwed up re. YT's Bi Rongjiu signed 'ZLY', when I first thought that it was late 19th C. but 'falsely signed', and then convinced myself it was 'right' (ie, ZLY).
But it turned out  I was right the first time, I'm sticking to my first reaction for the moment.  Grin
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2016, 03:46:50 am »

Thank you Pin !

Joey.. I just do not see how in the world this could be modern fake...  Huh
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2016, 03:58:04 am »

Dear George,

    How it could be fake?
Try the following, for starters:
1. It could be a new bottle, made to look old, and painted in the style of old, with a few  quirks, enough to make a collector think that it was an unknown artist.
2. It could be an old bottle, painted recently to 'gild the lily'.
3. The figural style looks caricaturish and not at all what I'd expect of late 19th/early 20th C. painting.
4. The edges of the rockwork look 'wrong'.
Best,
Joey
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George
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2016, 05:32:30 am »

Dear George,

    How it could be fake?
Try the following, for starters:
1. It could be a new bottle, made to look old, and painted in the style of old, with a few  quirks, enough to make a collector think that it was an unknown artist.
2. It could be an old bottle, painted recently to 'gild the lily'.
3. The figural style looks caricaturish and not at all what I'd expect of late 19th/early 20th C. painting.
4. The edges of the rockwork look 'wrong'.
Best,
Joey

Holding the bottle, and looking at the painting under magnification, for me it is easy to see the paint has a good deal of age ..  Wish I could get a picture for what I am seeing, but not having success with that..

I do not see the same exaggeration to the figures as you are seeing.

I agree the edges to the rockwork "look" wrong, but I think can simply attribute that to being the artists interpretation of rockwork edging.. Even though neither of us have seen this style painting for the edges.

I am certainly not going to discount the possibilities you list, but it "feels" right for Middle Period to me..


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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 08:04:46 am »

Dear George,

     You have the advantage of having to hand. I am restricted to what I can pick up through the screen.
You may be right.
Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 03:54:56 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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Steven
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 09:12:01 am »

Dear George,

Congratulations on this bottle, I actually was outbid by you on it.Smiley

The reason I was trying to bid this bottle is very simple, The bottle is unusual on both the painting style and motif.

1st, I have never seen this motif( figure side) been painted on a snuff bottle , the way the figures were painted also not quite normal( The eyes will not be painted like that, if you have the book "Dating Chinese Porcelain from Facial Features and Adornments" you might try to do some comparison,  at least its unusual to me, I have not seen any middle period artists paint the figure this way.

2nd, the way the flowers painted also very different from the middle period, and I can't see the detail strokes from the bamboo stick. Maybe you can tell better.

I am not saying its a modern fake, but the bottle IS very suspicious, Or it might be a just special middle period bottle .  I hope that I can tell more about the bottle, because I like the motif, I might go do some research and get back to this.

Steven
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2016, 09:33:04 am »

Hi Steven :

It's been a long while since to posted something.... Miss your detail analysis of bottles....

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

Steven
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2016, 10:25:07 am »

Hi Steven :

It's been a long while since to posted something.... Miss your detail analysis of bottles....

Pin

Thanks Pin,

I have been travelling a lot, and quite busy this year, I did surf our Forum from time to time. I have seen quite few of interesting posts, just don't have time to comment much. I hope that life can be easier anytime soon, so that I can enjoy the Forum and talk to the friends here more often.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2016, 12:17:58 pm »

George - congratulations on getting that bottle! It's an unusual one for sure, and I look forward to the discovery process as the snuff bottle detectives research the case!
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2016, 03:43:18 pm »

Dear George,

Congratulations on this bottle, I actually was outbid by you on it.Smiley

The reason I was trying to bid this bottle is very simple, The bottle is unusual on both the painting style and motif.

1st, I have never seen this motif( figure side) been painted on a snuff bottle , the way the figures were painted also not quite normal( The eyes will not be painted like that, if you have the book "Dating Chinese Porcelain from Facial Features and Adornments" you might try to do some comparison,  at least its unusual to me, I have not seen any middle period artists paint the figure this way.

2nd, the way the flowers painted also very different from the middle period, and I can't see the detail strokes from the bamboo stick. Maybe you can tell better.

I am not saying its a modern fake, but the bottle IS very suspicious, Or it might be a just special middle period bottle .  I hope that I can tell more about the bottle, because I like the motif, I might go do some research and get back to this.

Steven

Finally managed a couple macro pics... I bought a new camera, and it is just a piece of junk.. Time for a new one !



* steven1.jpg (416.19 KB, 1067x783 - viewed 12 times.)

* steven3.jpg (356.46 KB, 1285x816 - viewed 12 times.)

* steven4.jpg (288.17 KB, 948x751 - viewed 11 times.)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 03:59:26 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

Steven
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2016, 05:32:52 pm »

Hi George,

Thanks for you the updates, it appears that bottle does have some age due to the worn of the painting. I still can't see any strokes which we can normally see in the Beijing middle period painting. I can only guess that could be a shandong style bottle, since I did see some shandong style is close to this style, even outline with solid color filled.

No matter what its an interesting bottle which worth to be studied, that is why I was attempt to bid on it.

It does not look like the new fakes for sure, so my guess would be early 20th shandong bottle. hopefully someone else can have more insights.

Steven

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« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 05:39:21 pm »

Also, you might change your title, when I say the motif is interesting, because the figures are not famers or peasants.Smiley they are beggars. the basket and sticks on their hands are typical for beggars.Smiley


* roc-neizhan-nanjing-qigai.jpg (19.9 KB, 517x326 - viewed 9 times.)
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« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2016, 07:56:04 pm »

Ah, beggars !  I did not think of that.. Thank you..

I probably overpaid, but wanted it in part for the same reason you mention.. To study it closer..

When looking inside the bottle the fact that it is painted, and not an attempt to fake in some way, as it is painted.

The strange thing is what appear to be more cracking and sort of separation of the paint. I am guessing that is the result of the water color paint and age over time.. Plus being applied to an unprepared/roughened interior.

If we could blow up images like the Ma bottles below, I wonder if we would not see similarities..

Would it help to send this to you for a look Steven ?


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* steven5.jpg (235.54 KB, 815x764 - viewed 11 times.)

* steven6.jpg (187.7 KB, 706x696 - viewed 9 times.)
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« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2016, 09:44:49 pm »

Hi George,

I agree with you that the painting damage and the cracks on the painting are definitely because of the unprepared  the interior surface. I also wonder it also could be a reason that we can't see the strokes very well.

To me, the style is different from Ma family's style, you notice the outline of the painting on your bottle has the even thickness, but not for Ma family bottle, and the filled color always varied with brightness and darkness, but in your bottle, the filled color is more solid.  attached please find the style I am referring to. I would be wrong on this one, it really confused me.

Let's keep it going, I want to figure it out since you already have it on your hand.

Steven


* 23b887f1.jpg (127.51 KB, 682x398 - viewed 13 times.)
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George
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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2016, 10:06:53 pm »

Thanks Steven...

I was just using the Ma images for comparison, not thinking mine a Ma Family painted.. Suggesting that if I could blow those up enough, I think we would see similarities .. Looking at them the best I could blow them up, I can already see how if blown up further I think we would see the similarities in the appearance of the paint, etc..

I think the only other thing to do in regards to keeping going is for me to keep searching for something similar in an effort to ID the artist.  I will see if I can find some other MP bottles online where the site offers better than average blowing up of images..  See if I can find another MP example showing similar cracking/parting of the paint.  It is something I have never seen before. 

I suppose things like being in a poor environment could be part of the reason, but wonder if there was something about the paint used that for what ever reason resulted in this cracking over time.. Not sure. 

Thanks again Steven and all..  So the search is on !
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2016, 10:14:06 pm »

I forgot to add.. I agree about the bottle likely being Shandong ..

Rather than changing each and every topic to beggars, I am just starting it here on this post.. Otherwise my first few posts would not make sense ...

« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 10:51:45 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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