General information about the Site

This snuff bottle community forum is dedicated to the novice, more experienced, and expert collectors. Topics are intended to cover all aspects and types of bottle collecting. To include trials, tribulations, identifying, researching, and much more.

Photobucket

Among other things, donations help keep the forum free from Google type advertisements, and also make it possible to purchases additional photo hosting MB space.

Forum Bottle in the Spotlight

Adrian recently shared this wonderful Yan Yutian panelled bottle

Gotheborg's Marks On Chinese Porcelain

Photobucket

Snuff Bottle Collector


Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
May 26, 2018, 03:22:28 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home Help Search Downloads Gallery Staff List Login Register  

Glazed Double Gourd Bottle

Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Add poll  |  Print  
Author Topic: Glazed Double Gourd Bottle  (Read 464 times)
Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2016, 06:23:46 pm »

Kevin,
 
     I'm sorry, but you keep making blanket statements with NOTHING to back them up.
1. Something that " there is what looks like old snuff caked in clumps,  after having darkened w/age" could be anything. NOT PROOF.

2. Just because you write " The underglaze painting of the swirling vines, branches and the thickly painted grapes against a buff ground, in total matches in character with the early Qing ceramic painting technique", but give no comparable examples, is NOT PROOF.

3. Just because you write   "of the Yixing appliques shown here- the few Japanese examples produced thus far relevant to the topic don't show the same painterly techniques, but more importantly neither the subject matter nor representation was at all Chinese " is meaningless. Because it is not Yixing. Show us Yixing in any vessel which is as crude as yours. And what are "Yixing appliques", anyway?
 And you've NOT PROVED yours is Chinese.

4. "Yixing clay textures and hues can vary among the wares, depending on the location of where the clay was produced, and the firing temperature -different purposes would require different clays and temperatures" - SHOW US GENUINE YIXING examples that prove your argument.

5. And this is totally BS (I'm sorry, but it is): "With the presence of the tar on the lip, we also have a bottle with these Chinese bottle characteristics:  the height is w/in the normal range (6.35cm), a slightly splayed and recessed mouth w/a diameter of .71cm, w/in the normal range, a neatly formed convex lip rim typical of the ceramic bottle, a slightly waisted neck. An unglazed and deeply convex foot, an unglazed foot rim, w/the glaze ending in a wavy line, and as mentioned by the earlier post on the forum this would be one age indicator of the Chinese ceramic bottle. A very tactile double gourd form, not seen in the Japanese or Korean examples"

    Prove there are no Japanese or Korean examples in which the glazes don't end in a wavy line. There are many which do. And prove that their examples are not tactile. I have seen a lot of ceramics from both cultures which are very tactile.

    EVERYTHING you've described as 'Chinese' could equally well describe Japanese or Korean wares of the same size. And PLEASE don't tell me there are not such wares in this size.

    I'm sorry. You HAVE NOT MADE YOUR CASE.
And just doubling down and restating what you stated before with equally no proof, doesn't convince.

Best,
Joey

Dear Joey,
 thank you for the comment,  but no mistake on your part. If you however, come across photos or scholarly objects of the ones you mentioned, I would love to of course see photos of the paintings. Yes, it is a great bottle to hold Smiley

Best,
 Kevin

All,
 To Charll's point in looking or testing by using the sense of smell for the presence of snuff, please look at photo 2-carefully  there is a large gritty dark spot on the rim-  under magnification, and about the rim, there is what looks like old snuff caked in clumps,  after having darkened w/age -  I dont dare remove any of it
 
 The underglaze painting of the swirling vines, branches and the thickly painted grapes against a buff ground, in total matches in character with the early Qing ceramic painting technique and of the Yixing appliques shown here- the few Japanese examples produced thus far relevant to the topic don't show the same painterly techniques, but more importantly neither the subject matter nor representation was at all Chinese
 
Yixing clay textures and hues can vary among the wares, depending on the location of where the clay was produced, and the firing temperature -different purposes would require different clays and temperatures

 With the presence of the tar on the lip, we also have a bottle with these Chinese bottle characteristics:  the height is w/in the normal range (6.35cm), a slightly splayed and recessed mouth w/a diameter of .71cm, w/in the normal range, a neatly formed convex lip rim typical of the ceramic bottle, a slightly waisted neck. An unglazed and deeply convex foot, an unglazed foot rim, w/the glaze ending in a wavy line, and as mentioned by the earlier post on the forum this would be one age indicator of the Chinese ceramic bottle. A very tactile double gourd form, not seen in the Japanese or Korean examples

Best,

Kevin

Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

RW
Full Member
***
Posts: 175


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2016, 06:58:44 pm »

 Joey,
 Wow-please dont jump to further conclusions-  I never said anything of proof all I said was it has all the aspects of a Chinese bottle, W/ old snuff residue  - wish I could help you draw better connections here. -you had said earlier you wanted proof in pictures of similar bottles  - well  I painted a picture for you - that's all   lets give this more playtime in an email
 
Best,
Kevin
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 02:45:12 am by Kevin » Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2881



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2016, 02:22:16 am »

Kevin,
once again Joey has said exactly what I would say. Sorry to be frank, but I have not yet understood if you are joking or if you simply are not in condition to understanding.
You continue repeating the same no-sense things.
It has been repeatedly requested to you to bring a single reference for such many no-sense things, and you didn’t. All what you do is repeating them and even adding more.
You are even not in condition to see what you have in hands, because you continue reiterating that the decoration is “thick” when it is evident from your pictures that it is not true. It is a standard slip and cobalt blue decoration. That is evident to anyone who has ever seen in real a single piece of Chinese ceramic.
Being so, I am sorry but it is not worth (to me) to continue answering to you because you do not want to hear. I will only answer if you will change your attitude and be so kind to consider what others are saying to you.
I have a last suggestion: do not search images for Song/Yuan Chinese stoneware because you will find a lot of vessels which base is much, really much close to that of your bottle than your idea that it looks Yixing. Then you will be convinced that you have the only known snuff bottle of the Song dynasty.
To all, not particularly related to Kevin’s bottle, but in general. Even if the remnants found in a bottle are clearly snuff, it is not enough to classify a vessel as snuff bottle. I have a Chinese zhadou (spittoon) which has been used as lime pot. That doesn’t mean that it has been made for that purpose.
Kind regards
Giovanni


* 102155.jpg (48.72 KB, 640x480 - viewed 4 times.)

* 102156.jpg (65.87 KB, 640x480 - viewed 4 times.)
Report Spam   Logged

RW
Full Member
***
Posts: 175


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2016, 03:20:56 am »

Very good Giovanni,

 I always feel compelled when info gets sidetracked to right the course w/a recap, and yes under glaze blue enamel did exist in Qing period - maybe just a translation problem there so i let it go. For possible future reference,  it would help move discussions along by choosing to state instead how the blue decoration was really made at the beginning rather than give a discourse on what you believe was meant by the word enamel

 I suppose all of those medicine bottles that were converted for snuff use during the Kangxi period are just simply medicine bottles with stoppers- dont even think about it  Grin

In any case

Best and good luck

Kevin
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 03:50:13 am by RW » Report Spam   Logged

Fiveroosters
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 2881



View Profile
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2016, 04:08:51 am »

Dear all,
a clarification, just to be precise:
I did call the underglaze cobalt blue “slip”. I did use this word to distinguish it from “enamel”, which is a different thing. It may not be a correct word, but due to my bad English I did use that to give the idea that the under glaze cobalt is made by diluting the cobalt in water, like an ink for example, but I thought that “cobalt ink” should sound even less correct, so I called it “slip” meaning that it is a diluted solution of a color. I hope that now it is better understanding what I meant.
For sure, it is not correct to call “enamel” the under glaze cobalt blue because an enamel is a glass-like colored layer, which is thick and it “cover” the substrate, being it the biscuit body or a glazed body; while the blue cobalt is not a covering layer, it is a colored liquid absorbed either by the body and the superposed glaze.
Kind regards
Giovanni
Report Spam   Logged

RW
Full Member
***
Posts: 175


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2016, 05:19:47 am »

Very good Giovanni,

 I always feel compelled when info gets sidetracked to right the course w/a recap, and yes under glaze blue enamel did exist in Qing period - maybe just a translation problem there so i let it go. For possible future reference,  it would help move discussions along by choosing to state instead how the blue decoration was really made at the beginning rather than give a discourse on what you believe was meant by the word enamel

 and on your last statement above:
 [To all, not particularly related to Kevin’s bottle, but in general. Even if the remnants found in a bottle are clearly snuff, it is not enough to classify a vessel as snuff bottle. I have a Chinese zhadou (spittoon) which has been used as lime pot. That doesn’t mean that it has been made for that purpose.
Kind regards
Giovanniquote author=RW link=topic=3155.msg42701#msg42701 date=1472026856]

I suppose all of those medicine bottles that were converted for snuff use during the Kangxi period are just simply medicine bottles with stoppers- dont even think about it  Grin 

In any case

Best and good luck

Kevin

[/quote]
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 05:27:51 am by RW » Report Spam   Logged

Joey
Private Boards
Hero Member
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 8783


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2016, 08:19:21 am »

Dear Kevin,

    All  WHICH Kangxi medicine bottles converted to snuff bottles?! Where can you find Kangxi medicine bottles anywhere? Please let us (read ME!  Grin) know!

    Snuff was considered a medicine in Qing, so all snuff bottles ARE medicine bottles. Not all medicine bottles are snuff bottles. See Charll's comments about the shape of the mouth etc.

    Best,
Joey


Very good Giovanni,

 I always feel compelled when info gets sidetracked to right the course w/a recap, and yes under glaze blue enamel did exist in Qing period - maybe just a translation problem there so i let it go. For possible future reference,  it would help move discussions along by choosing to state instead how the blue decoration was really made at the beginning rather than give a discourse on what you believe was meant by the word enamel

 and on your last statement above:
 [To all, not particularly related to Kevin’s bottle, but in general. Even if the remnants found in a bottle are clearly snuff, it is not enough to classify a vessel as snuff bottle. I have a Chinese zhadou (spittoon) which has been used as lime pot. That doesn’t mean that it has been made for that purpose.
Kind regards
Giovanniquote author=RW link=topic=3155.msg42701#msg42701 date=1472026856]

I suppose all of those medicine bottles that were converted for snuff use during the Kangxi period are just simply medicine bottles with stoppers- dont even think about it  Grin 

In any case

Best and good luck

Kevin

[/quote]
Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Add poll  |  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal