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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
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Seal School Script? Glass Overlay Bottle

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Author Topic: Seal School Script? Glass Overlay Bottle  (Read 431 times)
cshapiro
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« on: August 11, 2016, 02:48:07 pm »

Hello there!

I am trying to find out as much as I can about this bottle. I bought it because I was attracted to the color and the carved script.

Would this be considered a seal school bottle? Also would the five carvings on the front (the bran, the crab, the coins, the carp, and the bat) be considered five blessings?

On the calligraphy, is this zhunshū script?

I notice that it appears that the reign mark is on the far left, and I am guessing that the four characters on the right might be a date because I think the first character stands for "one" - please correct me if that's wrong. But on the reign mark, a few of the characters are off. They aren't exactly like the reign marks in the books I have.

I have read a lot of interesting threads on the forum about this kind of script and I ordered the "Origins of Chinese Characters" book that many of you suggested to be able to read up on it.

I can't seem to find examples of overlay glass seal script, so if anyone can point me in the direction of where to look that would be awesome. 

So any comments on the bottle and it's possible age would be appreciated!

thank you!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:25:59 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2016, 04:00:49 pm »

It could be a seal bottle; however, most of the seal bottles I've seen didn't have the caligraphy on the reverse like this one.  However, the side with the sea creatures and the seal are - unusual since the seal bottles tend to be tall and rectangular or round with a cohesive scene.  This one doesn't tell a story - if that makes any sense.  Nonetheless, the important thing is that you like it and I hope it brings you a lot of happiness!
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cshapiro
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2016, 04:20:03 pm »

Thank you Dcist. Yes, I can't find any examples in my books or online, but maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing. If I knew what the bottle is classified as, that might make it easier to find other examples.

Update: I found one! The main script in the middle on this bottle seems like it says the same thing, yet the way it was written is different.  Putting them together like this makes mine look very poorly carved!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:26:15 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2016, 07:42:51 pm »

Dear Cathy, I have a feeling that this bottle of yours is modern despite the Qianlong reign mark and all that. As far as I know (to be corrected if wrong), seal school is what we call the Yangzhou school today which is known for its low relief. Its subjects are often related to the locality of Yangzhou (also where they were made) and sometimes come with a seal.
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Samson - a young new collector desiring knowledge
cshapiro
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2016, 07:50:25 pm »

Thanks Samson! Yes comparing it to the bottle I found, it appeared to me that the shape is wrong, the relief is too high on the front of the bottle, and the carving is not fine enough to be Yangzhou school. But I was hoping it might still be somewhat old simply because it seems like it would take a lot of time to carve it.

So I have one more calligraphy bottle I bought from the same person, and I'm guessing that it too is modern. 

« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:22:54 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2016, 08:16:00 pm »

Dear Cathy,

Agreed with Samson that this is modern and may even belong to a group that Tom L. has warned us about. Where this group are made with raw materials making them unstable and prone to cracking.

As for your postings, please observe our rules for the attachment size. 5Mb is simply too big
Both George and Giovanni has excellent step by step way of posting high quality photos without compromising on our below 300Kb per photo agreement.

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2908.0.html

I know it can be very exciting posting new subjects, just that this forum limit resources for everyone to post.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2016, 08:21:44 pm »

Dear Cathy,

I took your attachment and downsize it.

Cheers,
YT


* calligraphytwo Modified.jpg (108.84 KB, 638x2236 - viewed 31 times.)
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:25:59 pm by YT » Report Spam   Logged
cshapiro
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2016, 08:25:41 pm »

Thanks YT - I can just delete all the pictures so they don't take up space on the forum.

If anyone wants to see it, here's a link:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/201000-seal-script-glass-overlay-bottle
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 08:47:34 pm by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2016, 07:37:58 am »

Yup, It's a modern bottle.
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2016, 10:40:43 am »

Joey, it would be so helpful to me if you could point out what it is about these bottles that tells you they are modern. I have read everything here, and in my books about glass overlay, and can't figure it out.

On the first one, (that you can now see on the link) I carefully looked at the shape, which was rounder, so I thought the shape was ok. I looked at the base which is thicker, and not a perfect oval, and so I thought that was a good sign.

On the second one, I shouldn't have bought it - because I had never seen the glass carved underneath an overlay, plus the base was wrong, and the shape was wrong. I see that now. 

Of all the bottles, the glass overlay seem to be the hardest for me to understand the differences, because they appear to be subtle.

It would help me know what to look for next time.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 11:05:59 am by cshapiro » Report Spam   Logged

Cathy
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2016, 12:17:16 pm »

Joey, it would be so helpful to me if you could point out what it is about these bottles that tells you they are modern. I have read everything here, and in my books about glass overlay, and can't figure it out.


Here is a pretty good place to start Cathy..
http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,1911.0.html

Everything about the bottle screams modern.. 

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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2016, 12:35:52 pm »

Thanks George. I guess it takes a while to sink in. I have read that thread over and over again. I just don't 'get' it.

These are all bottles that I bought before, and I am trying very hard to not buy anything lately until I study more.
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2016, 02:29:19 pm »

Cathy,

    The one with the Zhuanshu (Archaic script) on the back, is obviously modern because of the shape, base, incised background which looks to be imitating Cinnabar Lacquer snuff bottles, and the subject matter. Everything about it is wrong.

However, the description in CW was very well done. No outlandish claims made for it. I'm impressed. Seriously.

    I've written this ad nauseum on the Forum, but here goes again:
When you are looking at a bottle BEFORE buying it, try to find the slightest detail which is not 'right'  for the period. Make no excuses to yourself why "it could still be 'right', even though... (type in the applicable detail)". Be ruthless in saying that it is not good enough. And don't buy it.

      There are literally hundreds of thousands of genuine snuff bottles out there, from ca.1660-1920. Don't be in such a hurry.
Having said that, I think the pink overlay on milk glass may be 'right'. But a success rate of about 5% is not where I'd be aiming, if I were you. Keep reading and training your eye. And at some stage, you need to get to a convention, to meet fellow crazy people and see the bottles in the dealers' room. 100-300 at each dealer's booth, times 8-20 dealers. There you will go crazy.  Grin

Best,
Joey

   
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2016, 03:03:45 pm »

Thanks Joey. I am trying very hard to not make any claims about the bottles. I don't want to spread misinformation and don't know enough yet to make definite statements. I appreciate your help in that area.

I really do need to see some real bottles. I might have a chance this weekend because I have found a museum close by that allegedly has some.

And I wish I could go to the convention! Would be nice to meet you guys.

I am sticking to my no more buying rule fairly well. I did buy a porcelain pea pod and eggplant that I couldn't resist, but I have such a huge backlog of bottles that I am trying to get to know them better before adding to them!

I have a nice old cabinet that I reserve for only "good" bottles that is rather empty, and a huge box next to my computer that is full of my 'discards' that seems to grow more and more every day!
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2016, 07:34:51 pm »


Believe me, if you work hard and learn hard, before you know it, you will fill the cabinet, and will empty the box. Eldred's in East Dennis, MA used to be a great place to dump crap. We used to have a saying, "Eldred's is to snuff bottle collectors, as the ground is to MDs; it's where you hide your mistakes!"  Grin
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey

Thanks Joey. I am trying very hard to not make any claims about the bottles. I don't want to spread misinformation and don't know enough yet to make definite statements. I appreciate your help in that area.

I really do need to see some real bottles. I might have a chance this weekend because I have found a museum close by that allegedly has some.

And I wish I could go to the convention! Would be nice to meet you guys.

I am sticking to my no more buying rule fairly well. I did buy a porcelain pea pod and eggplant that I couldn't resist, but I have such a huge backlog of bottles that I am trying to get to know them better before adding to them!

I have a nice old cabinet that I reserve for only "good" bottles that is rather empty, and a huge box next to my computer that is full of my 'discards' that seems to grow more and more every day!

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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