Ye Zhongsan Snuff Bottle?

[cshapiro]

Hi there!

Over the weekend, three bottles came up for auction, and although the bottles were not marked as such, I thought they were painted by some very famous artists.

I am still very new to collecting, and so I am unsure if I can rely on my own judgement, especially on such big ticket items.

I am posting photos of the one that I thought was painted by Ye Zhongsan. I discovered the auction too late to post it here for an opinion, so I was hesitant to go all out on the bottle because I'm so new to collecting.

However, I would like to get the forum members opinion on whether or not this really is by Ye Zhongsan.

Also I did research on Ye Zhongsan auction prices, and the average for all the bottles I found was around $3000 so I was thinking that was the top amount I should go. However, the bottle went for $4750 so unfortunately it is not mine. I would also appreciate some thoughts from forum members on how to determine the value of a bottle like this, that is, if you think it is genuine.

It has a very nice theme, which I discovered through my research is Zhong Kui the demon-killer in a marraige procession for his sister.

Sorry that the photos are not really large - they have taken the auction page down and this is the best I could do.

[cshapiro]

I will be the first to reply to my own post. After looking at these pictures again, I regret very much that I didn't get this bottle. It is so beautiful - that to me - it looks like it was worth every penny of that price.

[George]

It is without doubt Ye Zhongsan painted.

That price may have been due to good provenance.  Without provenance I think the value would be about 2500 to 3000. The best way to determine value for Ye Family painted bottles is to search archived auction listings.  Then of course the condition and quality of inside painting also.

[cshapiro]

Thanks George!

I am happy that I was able to identify it! I think especially when painting people that he has a very distinctive style.

And yes this bottle was without provenance - they didn't even attribute it to Ye Zhongsan - so the price it fetched amazed me - guess that's good news though for all of you who have a Ye Zhongsan bottle or two!

[samsonlzj]

Dear Cathy,

You found it on Eden right?

Best,
Samson

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear Cathy,

      I wish I could have accessed the photos before Shabbat. That is definitely Ye Zhongsan the Elder or at least Ye Family studio, signing Ye Zhongsan's name. But over the internet and without provenance, you should not have paid more than you bid, MAX. The bottle, while looking fine, might have had damage, which would drop its value drastically.

      And there are hundreds of signed Ye Zhongsan bottles.

      I have about 15 of the Elder's bottles, and about 23 of the Family Studio bottles. Most of the latter are signed Ye Zhongsan, though I also have a few with Ye Xiaofeng or Ye Bengchen (two of his sons), and Ye Shuying, his granddaughter.

     Rest on your laurels; at least a week or two. 
Best,
Joey

[cshapiro]

Dear Cathy,

You found it on Eden right?

Best,
Samson

Yes samson

[cshapiro]

Dear Cathy,

      I wish I could have accessed the photos before Shabbat. That is definitely Ye Zhongsan the Elder or at least Ye Family studio, signing Ye Zhongsan's name. But over the internet and without provenance, you should not have paid more than you bid, MAX. The bottle, while looking fine, might have had damage, which would drop its value drastically.

      And there are hundreds of signed Ye Zhongsan bottles.

      I have about 15 of the Elder's bottles, and about 23 of the Family Studio bottles. Most of the latter are signed Ye Zhongsan, though I also have a few with Ye Xiaofeng or Ye Bengchen (two of his sons), and Ye Shuying, his granddaughter.

     Rest on your laurels; at least a week or two. 
Best,
Joey

Yes that was the difficult thing to assess ... it looked like rock crystal but could have had damage to the base. That's why more and more I'm realizing you need to see and hold what you are buying ... especially at these kinds of prices

[cshapiro]

     Rest on your laurels; at least a week or two. 

I am trying to curb my enthusiasm! It is hard to do!!! But I have lots of questions, and so might just bug you guys here on the forum for a week or two and (try very hard to) quit looking at auctions.

[YT]

Dear Cathy,

Real Ye ZhongSan's painting are worth much more. Usually these are painted with rare subjects.
The common subjects are most probably by the family and school which by far is the most commercialized in the inside painted society.

Cheers,
YT

[cshapiro]

Thanks YT, so which one is this bottle? Is this a common theme?

[YT]

Thanks YT, so which one is this bottle? Is this a common theme?

Dear Cathy,

The ZhongKui story is a typical Ye ZhongSan storyboard as with the 'fishes in ponds' and the 'LiaoZhai stories'. As attached blown-up, I believe someone could have discovered that this bottle is crystal rather than the described glass bottle thus the higher price. (I am only guessing as I saw some crizzled inclusions.)
Although out of these common topics, there are really good ones painted combined with special-shaped crystal bottles, then those would go very high.

The not so common theme will be the portraits done by Ye ZhongSan or some other rare subjects that his family were not able to paint.

I have attached one of my bottle with him painting a deer in a blue background which is very much Zhou LeYuan style. Dated 1897, 5.8cm high, Mouth/lip: 0.76/1.74cm. This is quite rare.

Cheers,
YT

[AntPeople]

Nice Deer, YT........

The expression of the deer is very similar to my unsigned deer bottle by Wang Xi San....

Thanks,

Pin

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Dear YT,

    This IS a very rare subject for Ye Zhongsan the elder, and very finely done.
Or rather, say it WAS a rare subject. Within a few months, this being an open site, there will beaucoup copies, all signed Ye Zhongsan, out there for sale! 
Best,
Joey

Thanks YT, so which one is this bottle? Is this a common theme?

Dear Cathy,

The ZhongKui story is a typical Ye ZhongSan storyboard as with the 'fishes in ponds' and the 'LiaoZhai stories'. As attached blown-up, I believe someone could have discovered that this bottle is crystal rather than the described glass bottle thus the higher price. (I am only guessing as I saw some crizzled inclusions.)
Although out of these common topics, there are really good ones painted combined with special-shaped crystal bottles, then those would go very high.

The not so common theme will be the portraits done by Ye ZhongSan or some other rare subjects that his family were not able to paint.

I have attached one of my bottle with him painting a deer in a blue background which is very much Zhou LeYuan style. Dated 1897, 5.8cm high, Mouth/lip: 0.76/1.74cm. This is quite rare.

Cheers,
YT

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Yup ... I wish we could contain this ...

Nice bottle YT. Beautifully executed ..

[cshapiro]

Very beautiful deer bottle YT! Just lovely - I love the overhanging branch that frames the picture of the deer. I read some old posts on the forum and have ordered a couple of Raymond Li books and the Terese Bartholomew books to get up to speed on rebus, symbolism and themes. 

I found another similar Ye Zhongsan bottle as an example in Robert Hall's Snuff Bottles III, exhibit 33 on page 54. This one has the wedding procession on one side, and children playing on the other.

And yes, I do think this bottle was rock crystal and that must account for the higher price.

On this board being open, I have noticed that the posts on Gotheborg's forum are private and am wondering if the host company can make this a private board so posts are hidden? Otherwise, I see that most members here are also members on Gotheborg, and so I might start posting some there - although it's not as well organized as this forum. Plus that board is stricter about only posting bottles that you own.

It doesn't make sense to post bottles that I'm considering buying here because that just alerts everyone in the world to them! haha However, one could also use that to one's advantage .... if you know what I mean

[YT]

Thank you guys. In Chinese Art, plagiarism is perfectly normal. QianLong did quite a lot of that to honor previous dynasties' lost art.

Cheers,
YT

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

That's true, YT. But a lot of Art experts, and not just Western ones, consider him a major defacer of great Chinese artworks, as much as a great patron of Chinese arts. He put out a lot of mediocre Chinese poetry and prose, and then had it engraved on superb Imperial pieces from centuries prior.
Best,
Joey

Thank you guys. In Chinese Art, plagiarism is perfectly normal. QianLong did quite a lot of that to honor previous dynasties' lost art.

Cheers,
YT

[YT]

Dear Joey,

Actually the blame is more on the subsequent owners after QianLong where they also leave their marks. Look at some of the best paintings and see them covered all over with red chops indicating their provenance up till today.

On the contrary, the paintings by famous artist which have only a QianLong chop and poem sells at sky high prices with even museum wanting to acquire them.

QianLong was blamed more for his emphasis on culture and leaving a great empire with decendants that neglected military.

Cheers,
YT

[samsonlzj]

He put out a lot of mediocre Chinese poetry and prose, and then had it engraved on superb Imperial pieces from centuries prior.

Which is a disaster!