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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 22, 2018, 07:50:21 am
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Double gourd shape lotus snuff bottle

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Author Topic: Double gourd shape lotus snuff bottle  (Read 1195 times)
samsonlzj
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« on: June 29, 2016, 10:46:09 pm »

Dear all,

I came cross this interesting double gourd shape lotus snuff bottle recently. Isthe material sandwiched glass? Correct me if I'm wrong. What are your views on this one? It's got an opening that's quite large (so is the cork). What do you think about its carve work?




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George
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2016, 01:48:53 am »

Not sure if your "sandwich glass" description is describing what is called overlay ?  A base bottle is dipped in other colored glass, and then that overlayed glass is carved.

I can not say for sure , but my impression is likely 19th century.  I would have to find other examples, but at least have never noticed these dipped three two times.  The base bottle is pink, then a white overlay followed again by pink.

There was a topic for these bottles someplace.. I will try to find it..
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pookles
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 07:33:47 am »

To my untrained eye looks like good quality. What do members make of the cork stopper? Would you read anything into this?
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Luke
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2016, 07:41:44 am »

What do members make of the cork stopper? Would you read anything into this?

Would not read anything into the stopper, or use it towards dating. It is not often that a bottle still has an original stopper.
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YT
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2016, 07:50:17 am »

Dear Samson,

This looks to be a modern bottle.

Cheers,
YT
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pookles
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2016, 01:41:46 pm »

What do members make of the cork stopper? Would you read anything into this?

Would not read anything into the stopper, or use it towards dating. It is not often that a bottle still has an original stopper.

Makes sense. Thanks for info George. Was speaking to a dealer recently and he said that the older bottles would have used paper rather then cork for the stopper, but of course parts of old bottles are repaired over the years I suppose or loose their original lid altogether...
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 03:12:46 pm »

Dear all,
I agree with YT; this is a modern bottle. I had a similar one, bought at a local Auction, not so cheap because I thought that it was old, but I was wrong. Talking about this, since a while I am wondering if these overlay modern bottes, which are literally flooding the market, could be somehow molded instead of carved. 
Dear George why do speak about three layers, with the pink as last outer layer? The pink that we see outside the bottle is in the recessed areas.
Sorry Samson.
Giovanni
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 08:37:24 pm »

Dear Samson,

Attached is a well hollowed 'Sandwiched' Glass. The colour swirls are in-between thick layer of glass as shown in the mouth opening. Photography of this bottle is very hard due to the thick layer of clear glass resulting in reflections.

Palace workshop.
Dated to 1730-1780
5.5cm high, Mouth/lip: 0.81/1.50cm
Exhibited: An Exhibition of Chinese Snuff Bottles from the Bob C. Stevens Collection, Mikimoto Hall, Tokyo, October 1978

Cheers,
YT


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samsonlzj
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2016, 08:38:59 pm »

Thank you! From what I can see, the sandwich glass seems to be consisted of 3 layers. The first bottom layer is white, the middle is pink and the outer layer is white again. This is clearly seen in the pic shot from above showing the bottle's opening. Anyway, YT and Giovanni, I'm really impressed by your ability to ascertain its age. So why do you think this is a bottle made in our days? How can you tell that? And Giovanni, how did you find out yours wasn't that old after all? I'm really looking forward to learn more from you guys! Thanks!
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2016, 08:45:47 pm »

The colour swirls are in-between thick layer of glass as shown in the mouth opening.

I see what you mean YT. So are you saying that's one of the indicators of age for such sandeiched bottles?
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2016, 09:19:15 pm »

Thank you! From what I can see, the sandwich glass seems to be consisted of 3 layers. The first bottom layer is white, the middle is pink and the outer layer is white again. This is clearly seen in the pic shot from above showing the bottle's opening. Anyway, YT and Giovanni, I'm really impressed by your ability to ascertain its age. So why do you think this is a bottle made in our days? How can you tell that? And Giovanni, how did you find out yours wasn't that old after all? I'm really looking forward to learn more from you guys! Thanks!

Dear Samson,

'Sandwiched' does not mean clear layers literally.
Look at the mouth opening of my other bottle attached. The swirl of different colours combine with the carvings to create that perfect snuff bottle.
Your bottle clearly shows modern technic of overlay.

Giovanni has years of experience while I have only started not long ago. I have seen the actual Imperial Lotus Glass bottle which used to belong to Joey. Your bottle is a copy of it.

Cheers,
YT


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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2016, 10:06:00 pm »


Dear George why do speak about three layers, with the pink as last outer layer? The pink that we see outside the bottle is in the recessed areas.

Giovanni


Ah, ok... Smiley
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samsonlzj
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2016, 10:07:29 pm »

I see YT, the colors are well mixed in your pic here. So this is a common feature of genuine antique sandeiched bottle? The technique applied back in those days so to say?
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2016, 10:17:27 pm »

Hi Sam

I think sandwich and overlay are 2 different things... Hope you are not mixing up the 2 glass making techniques....

In a overlay.... You do see district layers when you look down the mouth of the bottles.

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

samsonlzj
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2016, 10:23:12 pm »

Dear Pin,

I see, so perhaps I haven't defined this snuff bottle correctly? Sandwich was only my guess, not the description I was actually given. Would it make more sense if it's a glass overlay instead? Any view for this direction?

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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2016, 01:46:44 am »

Dear YT,
I am not so expert indeed, it is not since long time that I am interested on snuff bottles. And, more important, I do not have access to high quality bottles like you have, I only can see them on books or catalogs.
Dear Samson, it is not matter of how the bottle has been made. It is matter of how it has been worked out. As I said before, I may be wrong, but I am convinced that the bottles like he one this your one are not carved indeed. Look at all details, you can see that everything is “rounded”, there are no areas where we can see a sharp carving. And no sign of carving tools. Look at how the ribs of the leaves are smooth. If carved, they don’t look like that, they should be more sharp. Look at the joining point between two adjacent petals and the lower petal. It is a recessed area and we should see some track of the carving tools there. Instead, too much smooth. Very high grade of glass overlay bottles has no sign of carving, they are perfectly smooth and polished, but it is another world.
Again, I am not sure of what I am saying, I can’t say for sure that the bottle is molded, but this type of modern bottles has a clear looking on its own that is completely different from the looking of carved bottles. In my opinion they must be made in some different way than real carving.
Giovanni
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2016, 02:35:40 am »

Very high grade of glass overlay bottles has no sign of carving, they are perfectly smooth and polished, but it is another world.

So there's still likelihood that this one may belong to "that other world"? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2016, 04:42:38 am »

Dear Samson, I have not been clear. I meant that a glass carved bottle of high grade too is smooth, but still you can see that it is carved. Look at the example here below. You can see the carving, while I don't see on your bottle. I am asking myself why all the bottles like your one has the same typical appearance, looking more as being molded instead of carved. Personal opinion.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2016, 05:50:18 am »

I am asking myself why all the bottles like your one has the same typical appearance, looking more as being molded instead of carved. Personal opinion.
Kind regards
Giovanni


I think your right Giovanni about being made from a mold.
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Tom B.
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2016, 01:29:05 pm »

Dear all,

The following images are of a 5.3 cm High Qianlong period Sandwiched glass snuff bottle that I bought from the Agatha Aronson collection. 



* Glass Snuff bottle 05.3cmH Imp Qianlong Our1.jpg (87.38 KB, 705x1100 - viewed 18 times.)

* Glass Snuff bottle 05.3cmH Imp Qianlong Our2.jpg (65.25 KB, 1100x622 - viewed 14 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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