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Moulded porcelain bottle - spurious mark?

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Author Topic: Moulded porcelain bottle - spurious mark?  (Read 880 times)
marcos
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« on: June 06, 2016, 11:08:13 am »

Dear All,

I would appreciate if you shared your thoughts regarding this moulded porcelain bottle. Do you think it is 19th with a spurious mark?

Is there any references to this battle scene.

Height: 7.1 cm
Mouth/lip: 0.6/1.9 cm

Thanks in advance for your help.

Marcos





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George
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2016, 09:43:06 pm »

Yes to 19th Marcos.. One of the nicer molded bottles I have seen.. I think there looks like may be some hand carving going on ..  Lets see what the porcelain experts have to say..

It's a beauty Marcos !  Others probably know the scene by heart, but I will have to search first. 
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Fiveroosters
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2016, 01:03:49 am »

Dear Marcos,
I agree with George. The mark doesn't have the quality of a Qianlong imperial mark, so the bottle should be 19th century, but the quality is simply exceptional. What a bottle! Really exceptional. Congratulations.
Giovanni
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Wattana
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2016, 03:22:27 am »

Hi Marcos,

I agree, the moulding on this bottle is well above the average. Congrats.
But it is definitely not Qianlong.

Tom
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Tom
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YT
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2016, 10:15:34 pm »

Dear Marcos,

I would agree that the quality is good with colours that were exceptionally well controlled. My guess for the dates will be last half of the 19th C. base on the clothing of the Qing army and the use of cannons.
This looks to be the first Han race formulated voluntary army raised by Zeng GuoFan to quell the TaiPing rebellion. Look at the commoner clothing beyond the standard Qing vest and how the rebellion army holding only badly equipped spears.

My imagination running wild.  Grin

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2016, 04:27:25 am »

A bottle I'd love to own. The porcelain moulding/carving looks very sharp and detailed. Where did you find the bottle Marcos?
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Luke
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 05:19:58 am »

Dear YT,

Well observed. An interesting subject to depict. I think this is the first moulded porcelain bottle I have seen portraying this topic.

Best,
Tom

PS: Hi Pookles - I'd also love to own it!  Wink
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Tom
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2016, 05:20:27 am »

Nice bottle... Thanks for sharing

Pin
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五花馬,千金裘。呼兒將出換美酒,與爾同銷萬古愁。

http://www.chinese-snuff-bottle.com

marcos
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2016, 10:57:33 am »

Hi Guys,

I am happy you liked it.

Dear YT,

Very good observation! I never linked it to the Tai ping rebellion, but now that you mentioned it, it makes a lot of sense. The artist has done a great job depicting the ragtag rebels charging against the Qing army.

Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate it.

Best Regards,

Marcos

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YT
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2016, 06:27:36 pm »

Glad to have helped!

Cheers,
YT
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samsonlzj
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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2016, 07:09:09 pm »

Great imagination! But one thing, the Tai Ping rebellion happened well after Qianlong time. Why the Qianlong mark was used then?   Huh
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marcos
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 09:26:25 pm »

Dear Samson,

In the second half of the 19th century, it became commonplace to use earlier reign marks on wares to honour ancestral emperors and surely to make extra profits.

Regards,

Marcos
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2016, 11:22:21 pm »

Great imagination! But one thing, the Tai Ping rebellion happened well after Qianlong time. Why the Qianlong mark was used then?   Huh

Samson,

To make a point once used by Joey on this forum, copies of ancient Greek coins sometimes have the "BC" date stamped on them for added effect!   Wink

Tom
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Tom
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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2016, 11:55:01 pm »


Marcos,

Here is what appears to be a similar moulded bottle with a similar or continuation of the same scene.  The bottle has a Qianlong mark as your bottle.  It is part of the Rt. Hon. the Marquess of Exeter, Chinese Snuff Bottles:6, published by Hugh Moss in 1974, Bottle C.71.  Date is given as 1820-1860. 

Hope this adds to your record, Charll


* Marquess of Exeter-C71.JPG (413.5 KB, 571x800 - viewed 33 times.)
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2016, 11:58:20 pm »

Well spotted Charll!

Tom
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2016, 12:17:00 am »

Nice find Charll !
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2016, 02:04:33 am »

This subject is truly one of a kind!
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marcos
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2016, 09:45:23 am »

Hi Charll,
Thanks a lot.

Very well spotted indeed! Nice find.
Would it be reasonable to assume this bottle as well was mine were made at the Jingdezhen kilns ( re-built after the Taipings defeat)?

Could it be the case these bottles were commissioned to celebrate victory over the rebels?

(As a side note, I am coincidentally reading a very good book on the subject called "Autumn in the Heavenly Kingdom" . It is interesting how little we know about this conflict in the West - the bloodiest of the 19th century.)
Best regards
Marcos

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rpfstoneman
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2016, 09:28:45 am »

Quote
Would it be reasonable to assume this bottle as well was mine were made at the Jingdezhen kilns ( re-built after the Taipings defeat)?

Could it be the case these bottles were commissioned to celebrate victory over the rebels?

Marcos,

I'm not that well versed in Chinese history or have enough knowledge to say exactly when your bottle and Marquess of Exeter were actually made.  It could be I suppose that your bottle and the Marquess bottle were made post Taiping Rebellion.  If so, and said bottles did relate the imagery of the rebellion, then the bottles would likely be post 1864. 

Charll

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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2016, 01:16:45 pm »

Dear Charll,

    Assuming the subject does reference the Taiping rebellion and is honouring the defeat of the rebels, it would be really impressive if the bottle was made ca. 1820-1860. Prophetic even.   Grin Roll Eyes Cheesy
Best,
Joey



Marcos,

Here is what appears to be a similar moulded bottle with a similar or continuation of the same scene.  The bottle has a Qianlong mark as your bottle.  It is part of the Rt. Hon. the Marquess of Exeter, Chinese Snuff Bottles:6, published by Hugh Moss in 1974, Bottle C.71.  Date is given as 1820-1860. 

Hope this adds to your record, Charll
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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