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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 16, 2018, 03:27:26 am
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Blue and white porcelain bottle with the mark of "Yu Chun Tang"

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Author Topic: Blue and white porcelain bottle with the mark of "Yu Chun Tang"  (Read 951 times)
samsonlzj
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« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2016, 11:41:21 pm »

Thanks everyone for offering your views and opinions on my bottle. I love the discussion
and the synergy in it! In any case, this bottle is one of my favorites and it has a special standing in my collection. Anyway, perhaps, the mark at its base would offer some clue? Had anyone heard or read about the mark of "Yu Chun Tang" before?
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« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2016, 11:51:35 pm »

Hi Charll! Nice to hear from you! The bottle in the link you posted looks very similar to the one I have apart from some slight difference with its drawing pattern! Not very sure how accurate the description regarding its age is though. I've actually been researching into my bottle based on what I can see on it but the findings have been rather limited. One question I have is the history of this hall and whether it existed at any time during the Qing period.
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2016, 02:22:06 am »

Dear all,
I didn't comment about age because of the lack of resolution in the pictures seen up to now. But I must say that since the beginning I was dubious about being it an old botlte, if it was a snuff bottle. This is the reason why I did insist in understanding if it was really a snuff bottle or a miniature vase. If it was a miniature vase, then there was more chances that it was an old piece. But being it a snuff bottle, I have doubts, because I think that the imitation of a Yuan meiping vase doesn't fit with old bottles, it is much more understandasble with the mentality of forgers or recent manufactures. I am convinced that the bottle found by Charll is supporting these my thoughts. BTW, just thoughts from my side here, nothing supported by evidence. Who knows I could change completely if I could handle the bottle.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2016, 04:27:42 am »

But being it a snuff bottle, I have doubts, because I think that the imitation of a Yuan meiping vase doesn't fit with old bottles, it is much more understandasble with the mentality of forgers or recent manufactures.

I agree Giovanni..
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2016, 09:49:33 am »

Dear All,

    This is why I hate to try and judge over the 'net! I'm almost always wrong!  Roll Eyes Cry Grin
I had really never before seen a bottle like this. Which of course, should have warned me right away - since Chinese Art is almost invariably variations on a theme, not to have seen a single other example in over 46 years, should have made alarm bells ring.

    But it really looks good, especially the colour of the cobalt blue. However, Giovanni and Charll are correct - the quality of the photography was such that it was hard to judge.

    And hope springs eternal...
Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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samsonlzj
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2016, 09:52:23 am »

I came across this info when browsing the internet this evening. This is the only auction record  available to date.

http://www.xlysauc.com/english/auction5_det.php?ccid=588&id=78795

What do you reckon?

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Tom B.
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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2016, 02:09:13 pm »

Dear Samson and all,

Unique, one-of-a-kind is always dangerous when buying Chinese ceramics and especially so in a field as highly collected and published like snuff bottles.  Why? Because even the 'best' fake ceramics are made in series of at least three or more. I have been told more than once that anything unique with less than a 15 to 20 year verifiable provenance will usually not be accepted as genuine even when experts agree that that it really looks correct. If no other example has surfaced during 15 or more years, we might safely assume it to be genuine.   

This is such an attractive looking Blue & White snuff bottle that I am sure Joey would readily remember having seen one as part of an important auction or trusted dealer's stock or in an ICSBS member's collection in the past.  If fact I would imagine that any serious collector or dealer with interest in blue & white porcelain snuff bottles such as Robert Kleiner or Joey Silver would have readily added it to their collection.  So Charll (the avid SB Hunter) has seen a few of these mini Meiping shaped snuff bottles recently in small auctions where fakes occasionally turn up, but this was a new one to Joey. The only reasonable explanation is that it is "newish" from the 21st century. 

Best regards,

Tom B.
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2016, 02:30:22 pm »

Dear Samson,
I don’t know which Auction house is that, nevertheless I put my hand in the fire that that lot can’t be taken as a reference. My first reaction as I saw the lot: two identical bottles? Hmmm………quite suspicious!! Then, since I did heard that in China there are Auction houses who do sell fakes (no wonder, there are even Museums based only on fake “relics” in China!), I did look at some of the other items on sale.  I did look at porcelain, because it is a field where I have some knowledge. Click six times on “Next” pushbutton in the right lower corner of the screen. You will see that there is a red porcelain round box in the list. Click on it: Lot number 3049, a brand new piece, with Kangxi mark, and the Auction house does not even mention a possible age nor the presence of the mark. Sold for 50,000 RMB. Who bought it is crazy.  See the next item in the list, lot number 2921: Four (yes, four!!) super rare Jun cups and stands. Why do not sell them at dozens then? Or for Kilo? Totally ridiculous! Clear fake, and was sold for 460,000 RMB! Who bought them is not crazy, he is stupid. I think that it’s enough, no?
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« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2016, 02:38:01 pm »

Dear Tom B., we did post at the same time. Same idea I see. Dear Samson, if you live in China, stay away from that Auction house!
Giovanni
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« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2016, 02:42:21 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

Thanks for adding the information about the Chinese auction results; we can't warn people often enough about those crooks.
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Tom B.

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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2016, 07:27:49 pm »

Thank you! Thank you everyone for your precious comments! What I've heard and learned here in these couple of days since I joined the forum is that SB collection is something that really requires years and years of experience to explore and deepen the knowledge, discussions here I believe just helps expedite this process! That's what I need badly as an amateur collector! Really got to be very cautious these days with adding anything into my collection, keep collecting with a blind eye is just like a gamble, a huge gamble! Especially in today's world where fakes flourishes! This is the advice Robert Hall offered me yesterday when I visited his booth at the HK antique show. Really glad to have met this big name in the business. He also offered me views on couple of other bottles of mine. Thinking back, I should have brought along this porcelain one for him to have a look at too and see what he's got to say about it. Regret that.

But if anyone of you would drop by in HK soon or anytime in future, I'd be glad to meet up for more sharings!
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« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2016, 11:40:01 am »

Dear Tom B., and Dear Giovanni,

     You are both right, and especially your cogent analysis, Tom; re. my being persuaded it was 'right' and Charll  sure it was modern; Charll is much more 'au fait' about the modern  small auction houses.
     I am still looking forward to seeing Samson's collection when I'm in Hong Kong, including this bottle, but expect to be disappointed with this B & W! I was hoping it was a treasure I could enjoy looking at, as I enjoy seeing a number of Steven's Wang Xisan bottles. Or Charll's Wei Jianchao Panda bottles; or Pat's bottles; or Tom L.'s very Shibui plain Mineral and Jet bottles, etc. and possibly buying, if I could tempt Samson.

       I love looking at others' treasures, though I also am happy to add them to my collection if they are for sale at a price I can afford.  Grin

    Best,
Joey
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