Zhou Leyuan

[George]

Was checking out a couple of supposed Zhou Leyuan bottles that are presently up for auction.

Since this artist has not come up on forum yet, thought would add a little here just for future referencing within the forum, along with the couple of auction bottles.

Hugh Moss has a section within his site that talks about this artist.

"Zhou Leyuan (whose home-town was Shangyin, in Jiejiang province according to one of his seals) is the single most important artist in the entire field of inside-painted snuff bottles.  Artistically he has peers, none who surpassed him but a few who attained his lofty standards of technique and art (Yiru jushi, Gan Xuanwen, Chen Xuan among the artists who preceded him, and Ma Shaoxuan – at his best – Ding Erzhong, early Ye Zhongsan, Ziyizi among those he inspired). What makes him so important is his crucial position in the history of the art and the immense influence he exerted over all the artists who followed him, right up to the 1960s."

The Moss site also has a another section titled, "Ding Erzhong homage to Zhou Leyuan."

"Among Ding Erzhong’s masterly snuff-bottle are two which pose some intriguing questions about his relationship with Zhou Leyuan.  Zhou was certainly his original inspiration for taking up the art-form, and may have been his mentor, possibly even his teacher in some capacity. Ding’s career appears to have begun just as Zhou’s stopped abruptly in the Spring of 1893."

Even after trying to decipher all the above info from within Hugh Moss's site, I still am not sure enough that the bottles below are genuine..  

The one thing that does stand out is apparently during this time period painting was only done with bamboo. Not brushed as it appears at least that the signatures and script were done within these bottles.

Link to bottle auction number one
Link to bottle acution number two

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  George

If I am not  mistaken,  there  were very  few  crystal bottles   in the   late   19th  century , only  glass.

And  a  19th  century  crystal bottle ( which of course   would have to  have been  natural   crystal, not  man-made crystal)   - even  unpainted  - would   be  worth  US$  thousands

Cheers  Peter

[snuffbottlecollector]

I also think the colors on the bottle on the left are too bright for this time period.

[George]

Thanks guys...   

[Pat - 查尚杰]

The top bottle is in my mind 50/60/70s issue.  The quality of the glass is very different than old style glass .  I have a fair number of these imitations that I picked up over time.  Also agree with Bill, that the color is likely oil-based, so brighter than old style bottles.

Second bottle is a style which seems copied from Suo Zhenhai (deceased artist), which is now often replicated or loosely adapted by young up and coming artists.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Yes. the  2nd bottle  immediately  made me think of  Suo Zhenhai  / one his students

Cheers  Peter

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Seems the older style modern painted imitation bottles (50s/60s/70s) are also making their way up the value chain.  As I said somewhere here before, even on street and antique markets in China you can't even touch these under 400 RMB anymore (about 60USD).  'The times they are a changin...' to quote good old Bob Dylan.  Before we know it, this will all dry up under our very eyes. 

To George: if there is one you find again like this one, AND you can get it for under $50, even THAT is a steal.

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Pat, George   all

Assuming  I   we are talking  about the  same   2  "old"  bottles....

Re the   Suo Zhenhai   "copy",  as   far as  I know  SZH was  only painting this  style  in the   2000's

Seriously  :   I think  anything  on ebay  with a starting price  of  a  few  US$10's  is  certain to  be   rubbish / fake

It  does not   even  pay to  waste  time looking

Sorry  to  speak so frankly, but that's the   truth

One needs  to see  some  really good  modern bottles  to   understand  that  most of  what is  advertised  on ebay  is   factory   stuff

Cheers  Peter

[Pat - 查尚杰]

I was referring to the first (top) bottle, which is an older glass production bottle(middle to late 20th C)  The other is a recent Suo Zhenhai rip-off with a ZLY signature.

Peter, we have gone through this ebay discussion many times here. ..different strokes for different folks, different likes/dislikes/styles/wallets ...

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi Pat. George, All

Someone has  to  say this,  so  let  it be  me  who has  put  his  money  where  his  mouth is  as the  first  supporter-member

This  is  bold  thing to write, but  SERIOUSLY :   if  we want  other serious collectors   out there  to take  us  seriously we  must  stop  messing about with e-bay  and other  similar  rubbish  auction websites

Even  reputable  auction   websites  like  Eldreds  are  full of  junk  and fakes, so  how much more  so  is  e-bay ?

(The  only way to  pick  up genuine  bargains   at small  auctions like   Eldreds  is to  be there  in  person and    spot the   very  sheep  at first  hand  - and with   very  considerable  experience  -  from  the  huge  number  of goats, which actually  a  few  professional  dealers  in fact  do  )

Sorry  - la

But someone has to say it

Cheers   Peter

[George]

..different strokes for different folks, different likes/dislikes/styles/wallets ...

Very true.. Especially the wallet part !   

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Frankly, I am getting a bit tired about the one-sidedness and forcefullness of point of view here,... especially the rejection of the notion that there can be nothing good and 'accidental' and 'special' about other means of finding things we like, even it is from ebay of other places, because the price is low, and that because in some people's point of view the occasion or opportunity or luck of fortune to find something affordable we like does not exist, so as I have suggested before, i will just start keeping my mouth shut... probably better that way. I like balance in point of view and in life, and I seem to find it less and less here.

Take care, all of you...  

[snuffbottlecollector]

E-bay is the "mother of all yard sales" (Probably one should say the "child of all yard sales"). It is the largest place to buy another person's junk. Just as "treasures" can appear in a yard sale, it is also possible that they will show up on e-bay as descendants clear out the stuff of their parents, grand-parents or the neighbor down the street who had an estate sale. I have seen a few e-bay bottles start at the customary $19.95 - "I bought at an estate sale for $5.00 and thought I would make a little money" end up selling for over $2000 because they really were a great old bottle. I'm sure the seller was floored. Occasionally those bottles could go by unnoticed and sell for $100. Great bottles aside, some e-bay bottles have great stories like the one I bought for $15 from the grand daughter of a Russian sea captain at the turn of the century or the one I bought from the a lady in South Carolina who was selling items of her still living mother-in-law who told me about the traders from China who used to bring items into the northern part of Korea 70 years ago when she was a child and her parents bought the bottle I had just purchased for less than $20.

For artistic beauty, I'll stick with the VM painters. For stories and the "poor man's antiques", I'll continue to watch e-bay. For an obviously old bottle and $50, I don't have to ponder whether the artist was famous or the bottle a fake.
More often, it is the other way around and a bottle is believed to be worth far more than it actually is.

I'll continue to sell some bottles on e-bay; not because it is a great market place but because it is a good place to meet interesting people like the person from Colorado who bought one of my recent ones who has great antiques from the Forbidden City thanks to the collecting of his parents and grandfather.

As for the Shanghai dealers, I have two bottles I bought that are unlike any I have ever seen that are a mystery for me as "Spiderman" was for Peter.

Collectors collect because their collections are interesting, though not always good. So it shall be with snuff bottles.

[Pat - 查尚杰]

Well said Bill, and your reply to balance out this discussion is much appreciated.  If one looks for or likes 'old' snuff bottles or 'older' snuff bottles for whatever reason, ebay is and will be a place to keep your/our/their eyes open.  Sure, some are fakes, copies, etc.. but unusual things can still be found at sometimes amazing bargains.  Of all of us here, George, seems to be the one that has his eyes peeled most and frankly, he had some nice and unusual finds.

I will also re-iterate that when it comes to pure art, skill, and visual result, NOTHING beats the current VM artists.  A student today could put the old masters to shame, if they could come back and see what has been accomplished. 

As a mind 'teaser'  imagine if some of the current top VM painters could find a stash of old glass bottles like to the ones used by ZLY, MSX, Ding Erzhong, etc... AND use their current skill in the bottle that not only looks like 100-150 years old but actually IS.  Interestingly enough, I know that I, for sure... would not like the end result.  Why?  Because it would look 'out of place'and not 'of the period'.  Enough said.

[George]

Well said Bill, and your reply to balance out this discussion is much appreciated.  If one looks for or likes 'old' snuff bottles or 'older' snuff bottles for whatever reason, ebay is and will be a place to keep your/our/their eyes open.  Sure, some are fakes, copies, etc.. but unusual things can still be found at sometimes amazing bargains.  Of all of us here, George, seems to be the one that has his eyes peeled most and frankly, he had some nice and unusual finds.

Ditto to what Bill said, and yes.. I do search eBay constantly, and have stumbled upon a few goodies.. 

I do have a couple of secrets for searching eBay.. I would share them with everyone here, but then I would have to shoot ya ! 

[richy88]

Hi All

On the topic of ebay, I wish to say that it is possible to find some real treasures although it is hard to come by.

I believed many of us have heard stories of antiques being sold at auction house as junks due the lack of knowledge by the owner or the estate.

After collecting for so long, I think the greatest fun and satisfaction is the process of hunting for that treasure. If collecting is just like buying some stuff off the shelves at a department store, I believe none of us will enjoy it.

To acquire a new item based on your own judgement and knowledge is where the real fun is. If there is a story behind the item, it will enhance the process even more. It will be very interesting if one can trace the root of the item right up to its initial owner. That experience is just awesome.

Just my feedback after all these years of collecting.


Richard

[George]

After collecting for so long, I think the greatest fun and satisfaction is the process of hunting for that treasure.

Yes... The hunt !

[Peter Bentley 彭达理]

Hi  All,

Yes, I must  admit that's  another aspect  of   collecting  that is very  addictive :  the   excitement  of  wondering   what  goodies  one's  favorite  dealer  may have  in his bottom    drawer   this time  you visit  him.  Or the   thrill  of  seeing a  bottle  at an  exhibition  that  one  simply  MUST  have.

At the  Wang Xisan  museum  opening    there  were  only 2 bottles  that   blew  my  mind.  Once  was by  Liu Shouben  that  was unique  : no way it could ever  be painted   again with such  skill ,  and  it belonged to a well-known collector  who  would never  sell it,  and even if he did  sell  it   the price  would be  way beyond my means.   But... there was   another  bottle by an artist in his mid  40's   whom  I  admire  greatly and  whom I know  very well. This one was even more  beautiful  than  Liu Shouben's  (  well, at least to my mind), and in a   color scheme style  I  had never seen him paint  before. It was the  simplest thing  in the  world to    ask  him to paint another  in the   same  style  for  me .

Cheers   Peter

[George]

Was checking out a couple of supposed Zhou Leyuan bottles that are presently up for auction.

In case someone stumbles upon this thread in the future, adding this additional forum thread here for referencing.