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March 29, 2024, 04:32:46 am
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Early? Mongolian metal bottle

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RW
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« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2016, 02:48:21 am »


Dear Yt

 My apologies for the confusion- I felt it was better to keep everything in one spot in reference to the question on the masks. It was the 2nd link and comments on it which I found last night and added then to what was there originally
  Being able to sort out the good and bad about bottle collecting with experts and serious knowledgeable collectors has been very very helpful to me here on the forum.  I appreciate the input of everyone, and what I gain in the experience

Dear Tom,
 I greatly appreciate your efforts in researching this area as commented to YT above-  all great in the learning experience- The faceted bottle and this one with Ming metalwork impress me as being much older and of greater quality than what I had referred to earlier as mid 19th and later copies of old works-  this is such a rare area in collecting and will extend my search some for similar older works with the same mask feature
Best,
Kevin
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« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2016, 03:32:03 am »


Dear Tom,
  Does the 2nd link to the moulded bottle from the Bloch sale -w/ the individualized mask quite possibly from the imperial workshop have the character around the mouth which you are looking for to assist in dating by the the mask character alone? - albeit in moulded porcelain rather metal.
 
Rather commonly the imperial shops of Qianlong produced bottles with the individualized characteristic about the mouth. the quality about the faceted bottle is impeccable - which I believe would have been a work produced at the same level of quality in both the manner in which the metal work was executed and the design elements as w/ what was being produced by contemporaries in other areas of the bottles, mid 19th or earlier

 The similarity in characteristics of the details could quite possibly place both metal bottles from the same shop - but from different periods which would quite possibly eliminate an early 20th C dating by the mask feature
 
Best,
Kevin
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Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司
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« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2016, 04:52:03 am »

Dear Kevin,

      I think I'm figuring out where you are confused, and it is that you are assuming the auction info is accurate and correct.
Simple mistake!
    The following bottle is easily 100 years later than described:

 From the Bloch sale part X lot 16, A  moulded porcelain bottle imitating iron, individualized mask and ring showing upper and lower sections of the mouth, probably imperial, Jingdezhen, 1790–1840
 http://www.e-yaji.com/auction_images/zoom/Bloch_10/Lot%2016.html#

 You see that type of 'mini-taotie' on late 1890s to 1930s enameled porcelain bottles. And not that great quality, either.

   Personally, after thinking about them a lot, and examining them as carefully as I can through the computer (not nearly as good as 'live'!),
 I think that both the Mongolian style bottles you posted are earlier than Tom B. and the others think they are; but equally, not as early as you think they are.

 But you really should remove the terms 'famille verte' and 'Kangxi period' from your title, unless you add a question mark. It is misleading and distracting. In the body of the thesis, argue all you like.
   
But I also agree with YT and George. We are all here to learn, and this discussion has been very interesting.

    Best,
Joey
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 05:11:03 pm by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

Joey Silver (Si Zhouyi 義周司), collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2016, 05:02:28 am »

also, to be sure we are looking at the same genre of Mongolian bottles- metalwork with the coral, malachite or turquoise patterns, rather than what I see as a chased silver example.
 Going back to the example shown to YT earlier in the thread also from Bonhams re the difference in quality of the settings to both bottles I show and the 19th C example, I see in the profile of that one,a portion of the bottom lip, not a good example of the lip area, however, the mouth of the mask is open, w/ a portion of the bottom jutting out- maybe a stylistic choice made by the metalworker

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15883/lot/6415/

 the 2 bottles I show have the distinctive character of depth from the punch work around the mask ring area, rather than the thin, moulded or pressed variety of the later homage works as I am accustomed to finding of them in the date range given. And, along with that the all around lesser elements in design quality and execution than what early works w/in the genre would show

Best,
Kevin
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« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2016, 05:17:09 am »

Dear Tom B.,

      That bottle is late 19th C. Japanese kitsch with a well done Qianlong mark.

     Magnify it to the size of 3 ft. high (90 cm), and I can show you a pair of  almost identical gilt bronze vases in the garden of the Beylerbeyi Palace on the Asian side of Istanbul!  They are in the garden leading to the main entrance of the palace, not the 'back' garden, where the tea house and the shop selling superb reproduction enameled porcelain vessels in late Ottoman Imperial style from the Yildiz Porcelain Works are located.

    Don't let the price fool you. Two nouveaux riche Chinese collectors probably saw it and fought over it.  Grin Roll Eyes

    In the minds of two deluded and ignorant collectors with beaucoup bucks burning holes in their pockets, it was a "long lost Qianlong mark and period" treasure!  Wink Grin Cheesy
Oh, to have been the lucky person who put that Japanese kitsch snuff bottle into the sale! Expecting US$5K and getting almost a million!  Grin

    It reminds me of the Dec. auction in Paris, when two of these guys, albeit with less funds,  were bidding up the Hornbill Ivory, thinking it was Amber!
As soon as others told them in Chinese that it wasn't Amber, and that the big Western dealers weren't after it, they tried to back out.

   I didn't know all this at the time, but the Hornbill was still so cheap, that I started bidding, and got it 2 bids above their last bid (M. Vincent Fraysse, the auctioneer, put in one bid, and then I did.).

   People with too little knowledge and too much money are able to shoot the prices of otherwise valueless objects to stratospheric heights. As long as there are at least 2 of them in the room...  Grin Roll Eyes

Best to all this Passover week,
Joey
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 07:34:18 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2016, 05:24:44 am »

Dear Kevin,

    That bottle is probably ca. 1890-1930. Auction descriptions are often full of BS. The only question I often have is, were the cataloguers just stupid, or were they criminal? Chances are it is the rush job they have to do,  and the ignorance they have. At least I hope so.
Best,
Joey



also, to be sure we are looking at the same genre of Mongolian bottles- metalwork with the coral, malachite or turquoise patterns, rather than what I see as a chased silver example.
 Going back to the example shown to YT earlier in the thread also from Bonhams re the difference in quality of the settings to both bottles I show and the 19th C example, I see in the profile of that one,a portion of the bottom lip, not a good example of the lip area, however, the mouth of the mask is open, w/ a portion of the bottom jutting out- maybe a stylistic choice made by the metalworker

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15883/lot/6415/

 the 2 bottles I show have the distinctive character of depth from the punch work around the mask ring area, rather than the thin, moulded or pressed variety of the later homage works as I am accustomed to finding of them in the date range given. And, along with that the all around lesser elements in design quality and execution than what early works w/in the genre would show

Best,
Kevin
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 07:33:59 am by Joey » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2016, 05:27:28 am »

 Dear Joey,
 Thank you for shedding light on the problems with the bottles in the links, and I understand as many sometimes the reference material comes into question, so I am glad when someone like yourself can offer sound advice on the subject matter

I have changed the subject line, and my apologies go to all for the confusing use of the term famille verte stone pattern- it was only a narrow reference to the band matching up with what is found in that genre of porcelain-  which I felt as apropos for the topic of metalwork and porcelain border connections in early work

 I may add to the topic another time, if anything I feel may be helpful comes up

Best,

Kevin
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« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2016, 07:14:05 pm »

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for understanding.

I like to know different people's perspective and finding relevant facts to learn from. Maybe I'm outdated, maybe the others like your method of posting.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2016, 06:34:15 am »

Dear. YT
Thank you for commenting
 much of the confusion on this topic has come in way of the different interpretations on the intent here which is to research research research the subject matter. The many questions raised have served as guidance in further research on Kangxi period wares some of which has yielded some productive research. Although it has been argued the masks are newer, the construction and design elements are not.  The top with the wide lip has a soldered lead joint between the bottom rim and neck unlike the disk like washers which were welded together on the later bottles, 1850's forward
The cartouche shape with the unique patterned lappets below the neck match Kangxi metal and porcelain ware

The end result of all the research in this area hopefully will shed light on decorative patterns of of contemporaries of the period in different fields while giving a likely designation as a bottle of the period

Best

Kevin
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 05:02:38 pm by Kevin » Report Spam   Logged

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