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March 28, 2024, 12:06:58 pm
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Early? Mongolian metal bottle

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RW
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2016, 05:45:49 pm »

Dear Joey,

 I am grateful to you, many thanks for your comments Smiley
I will continue with the research, and use the perspective you gave for some guidance


Dear Giovanni,
 Possibly some of Joey's  comments will shed some light on your questions for answers- the primary interest here is in the old methods of execution of the metalwork, same of which is not found in what I would say are the many later copies, 19-20th C examples as seen in the market today,  along with some design elements as displayed in the links

On an early bottle, the malachite and coral choice for a border, same as the one shown in the link would have been very apropos for a time period when the emperor favored the famille verte style- so having this design feature on the bottle would not present a conflict in giving an early designation to the bottle. In fact the double framed setting on the border stones closely resembles that which may be found on the borders at the base of some Ming porcelain, but it is not seen in famille verte porcelain

Best
Kevin
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2016, 05:59:39 pm »




Dear Giovanni,
the primary interest here is in the old methods of execution of the metalwork, same of which is not found in what I would say are the many later copies, 19-20th C examples as seen in the market today,  along with some design elements as displayed in the links



I am following here, and just want to comment that I get what your saying, and find your making the connection in metal work both interesting and a first here on forum.... compelling , and interesting discussion..

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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2016, 07:10:02 pm »

Dear Kevin,

I am with Giovanni about your misleading title - NO Famille Verte here at all!  Smiley

I agree with YT that your bottle is very late.  The thing that tells me the most is the way the Lion mask handles show a bottom lip on the lion.  That just never happened during the Qing dynasty.



* 011 Mask handle 1.jpg (43.53 KB, 354x515 - viewed 30 times.)
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2016, 08:06:28 pm »

Dear Tom thank you for raising your concerns
 
  Metal bottles of its kind from the Qing dynasty had full masks, and that may be opposed to the masks produced by say the lapidary, ever having full masks-  (The palace work shops were very well known for producing bottles with individualistic masks ) 

 it is conceivable that the famille verte painting style, given the link to 2 porcelain pieces from Sotheby's showing the same alternating green/ red band at the base, had inspired the metal worker to reproduce the band on the bottle-  hence the label, and this again in contrast to turquoise and coral banding

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Kevin
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2016, 08:54:53 pm »

Kevin, you will need to post verified examples.  I have never seen any.
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« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2016, 02:45:48 am »

Dear Kevin,
I am not discussing about the age of your bottle, if it is 18th or 19th century or else. I can’t do that. I am questioning your connection about the bottle and the famille verte family porcelain ware only because of the red and green and the placement of the stones around the base. That is completely a free interpretation to me, without any support. If so, anything can be inspired by anything., like saying that your car is inspired to a Ferrari because it has four wheels. Placing repetitive shapes in borders is the most common practice on Chines porcelain. The red and green stones are the most common seen on metal bottles. If instead of the green stone there was the blue lapis lazuli stone, then would you sustain the hypothesis that the bottle was inspired to the vases of the 19th century, since most of them has a repetitive border around the base of red and blue pale colors? Remember also that famille verte comes from the transition of Ming Wucai into the famille verte of Kangxi, mainly intended for export except a few high grade items for the Court, and quickly almost disappeared after 1725 with the introduction of the pink enamel. Although I said that I can’t discuss the age of your bottle, frankly I will be very very surprised if it is dated to before 1725.
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Giovanni
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« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2016, 02:48:42 am »

Dear all,

Filigree on metal, inlay of precious stones, embellishments on silver have a long history dating to at least 400 BC. Peaked during Ming Dynasty, there were many craftsman still during Qing Dynasty and many high quality metal bottles produced till as late as end-19th.

The quality of this current bottle just doesn't show. (Sorry Kevin)

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2016, 03:22:12 am »

Dear Tom,
 
 yes, certainly, please bear with me and I will post some links re the masks as soon as I can... in the meantime, I have a 2nd Mongolian metal bottle posted here also as a research topic on metal faceted bottles. The workmanship on the 2nd bottle is impeccable, and I believe the 2 examples may have come from the same shop, although the one in this thread seems to be from an earlier time by the metalwork. The faceting style and quality as shown in the  2nd bottle seem to have ended in general after mid 19th C, and it too has the full masks.
The philosophy would be that the metal workers would not have changed the manner in which  masks were being done from what we know on other period objects such as bowls and urns to be consistent with other types of bottles

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,3023.0.html

Unsure about this one Tom, the mouth is less pronounced than the 2 I show, but it's porcelain imitating iron:
 From the Bloch sale part X lot 16, A  moulded porcelain bottle imitating iron, individualized mask and ring showing upper and lower sections of the mouth, probably imperial, Jingdezhen, 1790–1840
 http://www.e-yaji.com/auction_images/zoom/Bloch_10/Lot%2016.html#
 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 07:26:18 pm by Kevin » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2016, 04:14:03 am »

Dear YT,
  although I agree with much of what you are saying, the examples from the 19th C, show less quality about the settings -  here is a link to a bottle sold by Bonhams, described as a  A Mongolian silver-mounted jade snuff bottle - 19th C. with settings in that example which the catalogue described as elaborate and are of much lesser quality, ie newer than the elaborately done settings about the base of this bottle, and in true Ming/Qing period fashion... and we all have our tastes w/the bottles, and I respect yours

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15883/lot/6415/

Best,
Kevin
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« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2016, 04:43:25 am »

Dear Kevin,

Late 19th Century(1890) attached.
Not working anymore, need to send for servicing-self reminder!

Cheers,
YT


* Bronze1.jpg (61.75 KB, 367x600 - viewed 37 times.)
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« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2016, 04:56:20 am »

 

 Really beautiful YT! I appreciate seeing it here on the forum, the likes of which I have not ever come across before, thanks

Best,
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2016, 05:44:30 am »

What a beautiful bottle YT !
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2016, 07:25:42 am »

YT

That's a great looking bottle... Impressive...
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Pat
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2016, 08:31:56 am »

Dear Kevin, George and Pat,

Thank you guys. Sometimes rarity and quality still outweighs datings.
This Bronze watch is only 126 years old.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2016, 10:05:32 am »

Only? I thought that it was from the Roman Empire because of the style of the numbers!:)Smiley
Very nice bottle dear YT, I think that it is the finest metal bottle that I have seen, although I have not seen so many.
Giovanni
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2016, 10:07:36 am »


Very nice bottle dear YT, I think that it is the finest metal bottle that I have seen, although I have not seen so many.



Me too... Although have not seen many, this is certainly the nicest I have seen... !
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2016, 07:05:07 pm »

Only? I thought that it was from the Roman Empire because of the style of the numbers!:)Smiley
Dear Giovanni,

That is inferring! Grin  Grin


Dear George,

There are nice ones around. This was collected because of my love for automatons especially Swiss made.

Cheers,
YT

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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2016, 07:53:54 pm »

Dear YT,

A beauty and dating from 1890 shows the high quality of that time. 

Dear Kevin,

I have not been able to find any hardstone-embellished silver snuff bottles earlier than the very late Qing.  Apparently Mongolian silver circa 1900 and later have these off-style lion masks. On Chinese porcelain and bronze you only see them after 1920. 

I searched my books, catalogs, and online and I didn't find any Silver snuff bottles older than Qianlong period made in China. I did find an amazing 6.3 cm High Gilt Silver Snuff Bottle that is apparently a long lost Qianlong Mark & Period example.  It was given a very conservative estimate of $8,000 to 12,000 but was sold for the astronomical sum of $965,000.00 US dollars in December 2013 by Bonham's San Francisco.

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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2016, 08:02:58 pm »

Another nice early example is this 6.3 cm High Silver Snuff Bottle with a stamped mark 'Yuannix'. It was made in the mid-Qing circa 1760-1850 and sold for $50,000.00 US dollars in May 2012 by Bonham's Hong Kong:

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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2016, 10:00:35 pm »

Dear Kevin,

We are all here to learn and to share. I have only been collecting for less than two years and have learnt a lot from all the experts here. Don't worry about writing wrongly and sort out the correct facts and learning from it later.

Attached is one of your comment that was changed more than 16 hours after it was posted. I cannot remember what was spoken then and find it difficult to relate in subsequent comments by others.

Please understand I mean well and just hope all of us buy the correct bottles at correct pricing. Had enough of cheating!!

Cheers,
YT


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