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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
October 18, 2018, 02:58:32 pm
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Here is an interesting piece to talk about

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Author Topic: Here is an interesting piece to talk about  (Read 719 times)
George
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« on: April 21, 2016, 12:56:56 am »

The owner of this ( bottle ? ) was kind enough to send it along with a purchase I made from him just to let me see and handle it in person.  Due to a glitch in mailing, our package has been greatly delayed. So would like to go ahead and post for discussion since we have been a bit slow. .

My first impression was that it could be Yixing, or if there is such a thing, "Yixing influenced".  The overall shape, corners, squared opening , etc seem Yixing in style.

The enamels are completely foreign to me, and the use of a raised gilded outlines also foreign to me.

Interestingly, I have found several Yixing wares with chrysanthemum paintings. I get the  impression that there is a connection, but can't put my finger on it.

Of course the one big delima for me is the white color, when we expect Yixing in shades of red, and brown, but perhaps it is an off brown beneath the white glaze..

The owner has always believed it a possible Chien Lung or Jiaqing period snuff bottle.

All the Yixing bottles I find with squared necks, still maintained a round throat.

Can this maybe be miniature vase ( or bottle ) with yang-ts'ai or even fa-lang-ts'ai enamels?

7.5 cm height.

Thoughts greatly appreciated.


* yixing1.jpg (30.8 KB, 540x960 - viewed 25 times.)

* yixing2.jpg (30.83 KB, 540x960 - viewed 11 times.)

* yixing3.jpg (49.42 KB, 540x960 - viewed 16 times.)

* yixing4.jpg (40.69 KB, 540x960 - viewed 17 times.)

* yixing5.jpg (75.89 KB, 855x595 - viewed 12 times.)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 01:58:52 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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YT
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 02:32:01 am »

Dear George,

This is not Yixing or influenced.

It is colour painted over crackled glazed porcelain.

Quite modern I believe.

Cheers,
YT
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George
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 02:37:58 am »


This is not Yixing or influenced.



Your the second person to let me know that not Yixing in any fashion...  Thank you YT..

« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 02:57:35 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 05:02:44 am »

George

As a way of reference Yixing, think of the different shades of grey and brown of Chinese tea pots. There are also other colors but they are rare.  Yixing ware snuff bottles are getting quite expensive even the 60s 70s ones. I was told they are not easy to manufacture .. Don't know if that's true or not.
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Pat
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George
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 08:17:33 pm »

Dear George,


Quite modern I believe.



Bottle arrived today ..

We can know there is at least some age as the owner published it within Winter 1987 journal.  You all are much more versed with porcelains than am I, but I get the feeling it is actually a bit old. Can't help but think we are missing something about this one.  I really think the authors description for the composition of this bottle is spot on..

Then again, after my last two porcelain postings, what the heck do I know !  Cheesy


* article.jpg (469.83 KB, 930x1137 - viewed 20 times.)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 09:44:54 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 10:02:27 pm »



It is colour painted over crackled glazed porcelain.


I think the enamel crackled much in the same way it is known that enamel over Yixing will crackle with age.

Here is a Yixing lid showing how enamel will naturally crackle over time..

I really do not mean to try and beat this horse to death with a Yixing stick, but I can't get past this being Yixing clay slip.. The unglazed foot rim seems dark enough to be a possible Yixing colored clay.. By no means a dark colored ( clay ? ) , but not a white ground I think..

Regardless, I think it a fascinating piece.. 



* Yixing enamel crackle.jpg (67.33 KB, 540x960 - viewed 11 times.)

* clay.jpg (150.31 KB, 700x577 - viewed 11 times.)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 10:23:41 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2016, 02:16:09 am »

Playing with the X200 magnification..

These are of the darkened area of the foot rim ( thought to be slip )..  When the first two images of this bottle are compared to two other images of a known porcelain, they both show the same blue areas.. We can also see the white composition for porcelain as well..

Not sure what the blue is, but must be something within the composition makeup of porcelain.  Perhaps cobalt ?  Apparently it is used in clays/ceramic as a coloring additive.

So in order, first two are this bottle, followed by a two pics from a known porcelain piece.

So YT..., looks like your enamel on porcelain guess is the case here..
 


* footrim1.jpg (186.9 KB, 641x389 - viewed 8 times.)

* footrim2.jpg (180.44 KB, 635x348 - viewed 7 times.)

* footrim5.jpg (180.39 KB, 631x345 - viewed 6 times.)

* footrim6.jpg (179.58 KB, 634x360 - viewed 5 times.)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 12:05:16 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2016, 03:58:38 am »

Perhaps emphasize should be given to the bottle's integrity, and not its material.   Maybe we can know that it is at least a nice quality piece.

So unless I am misreading what I am seeing under the magnified pics, I want to go with YT's enamel on crackled porcelain guess.

Had fun with this one, and still find it an interesting, quality piece, and I think of some age. Wish I could find another porcelain ware example with similar enamels and same heavy raised cloisonne styled gilded enamel.

Will continue to have fun with this one a little longer while searching for such examples.. Perhaps a misguided reach, but by coincidence, have found some Satsuma Moriage pieces with this same piled gilded clay on crackled porcelain..

Thanks all, and YT !  Smiley
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 06:06:52 am by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2016, 09:19:53 am »


Quote
Perhaps a misguided reach, but by coincidence, have found some Satsuma Moriage pieces with this same piled gilded clay on crackled porcelain..

George,

I do not think this is a reach.  When I first saw it the first thing that came to me was a satsuma style ware.  It appears to be made for the American-European taste from the late 1800's to early 1900's, and a I would expect it to be Japaneses from the square bottle base and throat.  Will pour thought my satsuma information this weekend to see if I can find anything similar. 

Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2016, 10:15:44 am »

I am with Charll and YT on this one.

I don't think this piece is Chinese origin. It looks Japanese to me according the decoration and Painting. The flowers do have very much western influence on it.

Steven
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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2016, 03:57:24 pm »

Thank you guys...

The one thing that is a bit perplexing when trying to connect this to Satsuma Moriage, is the brushwork on Satsuma seem different. More finely detailed, and the brush stokes on this piece seem  much more broad, and sweeping. The ones that are not, the images are more carefully outlined.  Maybe that is what you see Steven in regards to Western influence ?

Look forward to seeing what you might come up with Charll..

The mystery continues !
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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2016, 05:59:57 pm »

If anyone can add to what the blue is within the porcelain, would be educating to know for sure.. Best guess is cobalt.
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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2016, 03:42:10 am »

Dear George,
agree with others, no Chinese and no Yixing at all. Can't say what is the blue that you see under strong magnification. It can be either contaminants, dirty, or whatsoever, at that large magnification it is hard to say.
Giovanni
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2016, 02:09:02 pm »

Dear George,
 
    It looks to me like English Moorcroft Pottery in an Orientalism style.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2016, 03:24:10 pm »

George,

After reviewing my Satsuma references and doing some online querying, I really think this piece is a Satsuma pottery blank.   After the 1880ís to fulfill the demand (i.e., the craze) for oriental items in the States and Europe, Japanese potters were making Satsuma crackle glazed blanks in masses that were being shipped to other decorating studios elsewhere in Japan.  At these other in country studios the blanks were being decorated with an Anglo-European flare for export to the United States and Europe. A number of these Satsuma blank vases do have both a square base and mouth.  So this could be one source of this bottle.

Another possibility with a later dating is that it is a Satsuma blank, but decorated in the US.  During WWI pottery out of Europe was becoming so scarce that the US turned to Japan for imported blank pottery and porcelains to be decorated in US company shops, art studios, and for the hobby craft market.  Many ceramic and art craft studios were around were artists painted on these blanks, often in Art Nouveau or Art Deco motif. When painted at artist studios or hobby shops, the pieces are often signed and dated by the painter.  Iíve always loved this form of Satsuma ware and have a couple pieces myself dated 1910 and 1912, a few years prior to WWI.

So this would be my initial opinion, Charll     
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2016, 03:38:45 pm »

Absolutely wonderful and thank you so very much for taking the time to research.

I think we can wrap this mystery up !

I may see if the owner will part with it, so can keep..

Thanks again to all for the help Smiley

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« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2016, 08:11:47 am »


George,

After reviewing my Satsuma references and doing some online querying, I really think is piece is a Satsuma pottery blank.   After the 1880ís to fulfill the demand (i.e., the craze) for oriental items in the States and Europe, Japanese potters were making Satsuma crackle glazed blanks in masses that were being shipped to other decorating studios elsewhere in Japan.  At these other in country studios the blanks were being decorated with an Anglo-European flare for export to the United States and Europe. A number of these Satsuma blank vases do have both a square base and mouth.  So this could be one source of this bottle.

Another possibility with a later dating is that it is a Satsuma blank, but decorated in the US.  During WWI pottery out of Europe was becoming so scarce that the US turned to Japan for imported blank pottery and porcelains to be decorated in US company shops, art studios, and for the hobby craft market.  Many ceramic and art craft studios were around were artists painted on these blanks, often in Art Nouveau or Art Deco motif. When painted at artist studios or hobby shops, the pieces are often signed and dated by the painter.  Iíve always loved this form of Satsuma ware and have a couple pieces myself dated 1910 and 1912, a few years prior to WWI.

So this would be my initial opinion, Charll     

Found this ..

By 1873, etsuke (絵付け) workshops specializing in painting blank glazed stoneware items from Satsuma had sprung up in Kobe and Yokohama.[24] In places such as Kutani, Kyoto and Tokyo, workshops made their own blanks, eliminating any actual connection with Satsuma. From the early 1890s through the early 1920s there were more than twenty etsuke factories producing Satsuma ware, as well as a number of small, independent studios producing high quality pieces.
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