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January 23, 2018, 11:53:01 am
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Pewter enamel bottle - help with the mark

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Author Topic: Pewter enamel bottle - help with the mark  (Read 204 times)
marcos
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« on: April 06, 2016, 03:34:14 pm »

Dear All,

Can you help me reading this purported Qianlong mark?

The third character doesn´t look like nien to me. Could it be the Yu Zhi mark?

Interesting it copies this design https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20524/lot/21/.

Thanks a lot,

Marcos






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Tom B.
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« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2016, 05:23:50 pm »

Dear Marcos.

The mark is just a little blurry, but it is a normal Qianlong nian zhi 4-character mark in seal script.  Please see the comparison with a clearly written mark on a Mark & of the Period Porcelain SB


* Snuff Bottle Silver repair SnuffForumPost01mark.jpg (184.06 KB, 784x736 - viewed 15 times.)
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Tom B.
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2016, 05:26:47 pm »

I think you may have posted this one in the wrong category.  It looks like porcelain that was made to imitate metal. The macro of the top shows that the top of the bottle was covered with a silver or pewter repair


* Snuff Bottle Silver repair SnuffForumPost1.jpg (88.05 KB, 589x495 - viewed 10 times.)
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Tom B.
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2016, 05:28:44 pm »

Please examine the damaged area in the photo and see if it shows the white porcelain below the heavy 'metallic' glaze


* Snuff Bottle Silver repair SnuffForumPost2.jpg (77.47 KB, 419x624 - viewed 15 times.)
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marcos
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2016, 08:24:30 pm »

Dear Tom,

You are absolutely right. I examined the area you indicated and indeed it is ceramic imitating metal and not the other way round.

The blurry mark makes sense now.

Thanks again for all your help.

Marcos
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YT
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2016, 11:54:30 pm »

Dear Marcos,

Agreed with Tom.

The Chinese characters for Qianlong YuZhi is 乾隆御製. For your reference.

Cheers,
YT
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marcos
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2016, 10:47:19 am »

Dear YT,

Thanks a lot.

Regards,

Marcos
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George
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2016, 10:47:55 pm »

One thing for sure... A most unusual bottle !
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2016, 02:07:04 am »

Been looking and the one and only bottle I can find with this color enamel on metal body is this one described as 18th, enamel in a turquoise blue on a copper body, decorated in black and gold with a floral vine scroll on both sides,and gold plated neck..

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Wattana
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2016, 06:29:37 am »

George,

There are closer examples of pewter glazed porcelain. We discussed one illustrated in Hugh Moss's CSB No.5 a few years back, from the Harry Ross Collection:

http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,980.0/msg,7612.html

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Tom
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Tom B.
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 03:03:47 pm »

Dear Tom,

Thank you for referring to that thread which I had totally missed.  As shown by the bottle there and Marcos' snuff bottle, Chinese porcelain imitating other materials was done quite a bit in the 18th & 19th centuries.  I was sure that I had seen at least one other bottle glazed like Marcos' bottle, so I looked through a few old catalogs and found one.  A 19th century Molded Porcelain Snuff bottle with Qianlong mark was sold in November 1994 by Christie's-Swire auction Hong Kong. They describe it as imitating Bronze:

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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2016, 03:19:14 pm »

Yes, thank you for that link Tom.. I also missed it..

Great find Tom B. !
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Joey
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2016, 03:19:42 pm »

Dear Marcos,

      I had the mate to yours, from 1971 to 1981. I put it into sale in Sotheby's London, and expected to get about US$100 equivalent in UKŁ. Imagine my surprise when I got UKŁ450 ! It was bought by a Chinese dealer from the NY area, who tried to pass it off as Qianlong.

     He later (1998) saw a rich sucker coming, and sold it along with 300 other bottles of mediocre (or less) quality to  a generous donor, for the Seattle Art Museum! Which was a waste of cash and space - they already had the Thal Snuff Bottle Collection, 220 SUPERB examples, donated by 2 brothers, refugees from Hitler's Germany, the owners of Thal's Rock Shops, to thank their adopted city and country, for welcoming them in when they had nowhere to go in the late 1930s.

      In reality, it is from a VERY degraded mold, and you can see how the dogs' tails are a just blob, where on early examples (late Qianlong and Jiaqing), one can see the individual hairs in the tail. I had a superb example with a genuine Jiaqing mark (and period), in red glaze.

      The dating on your posted bottle is really Guangxu (1874 - 1908). Ignore the Qianlong mark. It's not Yuzhi or even Nianzhi.

     Best,
Shabbat Shalom & Chodesh Tov (Nisan starts tonight - 2 weeks to the Seder! Grin),
Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2016, 04:34:30 pm »

Dear Joey,

While I agree with you about the lower quality of the mold used for Marcos' bottle, this type of metallic glaze is much thicker than the red used to imitate lacquer.  The following is a Jiaqing M&P example with similar red glaze like the one you owned.  A 6.9 cm High Jiaqing Mark & Period Porcelain Snuff Bottle from the Bloch Col sold for circa $41,922 USD in June 2015 by Sothebys Hong Kong:

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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2016, 05:04:28 pm »

From my experience with other red glazed imitation cinnabar Snuff Bottles, it isn't much thicker than the clear glaze they were using on other molded bottles in early days of molded porcelain snuff bottles circa 1780-1820.  If you look at the small damaged area I circled on the back of one of the foo lions of Marcos' SB, you can see that the glaze is very thick. I think that it would probably obscure much of the fine detail.

The side view really shows how thinness of this glaze. If you shrink that down to actual size with your imagination and look at the tiny space between the green arrows you can imagine how thin the glaze must be.  You have two thin layers of red glaze over a the molded porcelain.  I think the reason they didn't make very many of the imitation bronze was due to the heavy glaze obscuring most of the details.

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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2016, 05:10:56 pm »

Dear Tom B.,

    First of all, that ex-Bloch bottle is SUPERB! I don't remember ever seeing it before, and I thought I'd seen the whole Bloch collection.

    Re.Marcos' example; if you look at the tails, you will see that they are each just a blob. No detail is visible. And it is not just because of the thick glaze. The mold is highly degraded from use and age.

    Best,
Shabbat Shalom,
Joey
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Tom B.
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2016, 08:26:19 pm »

Dear Joey,

I absolutely agree that the Bloch double porcelain SB imitating cinnabar is the best example I have ever seen.  Since it was in the very last sale, it could have been a late addition to their collection.

You are correct about the lack of detail on Marcos' bottle and you sent me on a research mission.  It brought me to a 'new-to-me' discovery.  Please bear with me as I tend to "build a clock" when you ask me the time.  Smiley

First I was only able to find one verified example of a Jiaqing Mark & Period porcelain SB imitating cinnabar with this "nine Buddhist Lion" motif.

A Jiaqing M&P Porcelain Snuff Bottle 6.85 cm High ex-Bloch Col sold for circa $11,599 USD in November 2010 by Bonham's Hong Kong:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/91/


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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2016, 08:30:35 pm »

From the description coming from Robert Hall in 1985, I suppose this could even be your SB that you sold.

moulded 'famille-rose' porcelain 'nine Buddhist lions' snuff bottle
Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, Jiaqing gold-enameled seal mark and of the period, 1796–1820
6.85cm high.
FOOTNOTES
Treasury 6, no. 1210

瓷胎模製粉彩九獅滾球鼻煙壺
景德鎮官窯,金彩「嘉慶年製」篆款,1796-1820

Gilt Lions

Gold and iron-red enamels on colourless glaze on porcelain; with a slightly convex lip and concave foot surrounded by a convex footrim; moulded with a continuous design of nine Buddhist lions playing with five beribboned brocade balls on a lower plane of formalized clouds, with some of the upper plane of detail undercut to leave it free standing, framed between formalized lingzhi around the base and at the shoulders, the neck with a band of continuous leiwen (thunder pattern); all exterior surfaces of the outer body covered with iron-red enamel detailed in gold; the lip, neck rim, and footrim painted gold; the foot inscribed in iron-red seal script, Jiaqing nian zhi ('Made during the Jiaqing period'); the interior unglazed
Imperial kilns, Jingdezhen, 1796–1820
Height: 6.85 cm
Mouth/lip: 0.6/2.0 cm
Stopper: iron-red and gold enamels on colourless glaze on porcelain, moulded with a formalized chrysanthemum design

Condition: kiln condition; stopper probably not original, but a later replacement, possibly made in the 1970s

Provenance:
Robert Hall (1985)

Published:
Kleiner 1987, no. 223
Treasury 6, no. 1210

Exhibited:
Sydney L. Moss Ltd, London, October 1987
Creditanstalt, Vienna, May–June 1993

The interesting 'discovery' for me is in the carved details.  This SB is reticulated and has hand carved added details like the hairs of the tails, etc.
 

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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2016, 08:37:05 pm »

An almost identical example in Famille Rose enamels was included in the May 2010 Bloch sale:

A Jiaqing M&P Porcelain Snuff Bottle 6.85 cm High ex-Bloch Col sold for circa $9,279.00 USD in May 2010 by Bonham's Hong Kong:

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/91/

Interesting that the tails are like "blobs" with only painted details rather than carved in details.

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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2016, 08:44:56 pm »

I actually found several examples of each type and the monochrome were consistently highly detailed while the Famille Rose were not.  This is apparently a model that was first introduced during the Jiaqing period.  In my previous research of Qianlong molded porcelain snuff bottles I found they were all expertly finished and had hand carved details regardless of the type enamels used to finish them.  So that is my 'aha' out of all of this.

Thank you for adding your critique to this thread, Joey.  Hope you are traveling safe and enjoyed Italy.
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Tom B.

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