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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
July 17, 2018, 11:45:43 pm
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Sharing another lacquer bottle

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Author Topic: Sharing another lacquer bottle  (Read 284 times)
Steven
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« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2016, 12:04:19 am »

Dear Tom,

Thank you for sharing all the examples, I do agree with u about the chrisite's bottle, it doesn't look right to me. I think all ur concerns are valid.  Smiley

Steven
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Fiveroosters
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« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2016, 06:02:05 am »

Dear Tom,
I think that you misunderstood me. Please re-read what I have written. I know I have not been clear but the only way to be more clear is to draw a sketch of what I meant. I don't know if I will ahve time to made it. If yes, I will post it and through it demonstrate that what we see on the petals of Marcos' bottle are not layers.
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Giovanni
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marcos
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« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2016, 11:04:24 am »

Dear Giovanni,

I think I understand what you mean about the 45 degrees angle.

The petals are actually quite open and form a 45 degrees angle to the centre of the bottle. Please see the photographs below:




Dear Tom,

Thank you so much for sharing all this photos and all the information you kindly shared with us regarding carved cinnabar lacquer.

I would be happy to hear your opinion regarding this bottle http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2982.0.html

Best Regards,

Marcos
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Tom B.
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« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2016, 11:35:25 am »

Dear Steven,

I am happy that you share my opinion about the 'ex YF Yang' bottle sold by Christie's.  In YF Yang's defense he sold it "before 1981" and many areas of snuff bottles had not been fully researched back then.  At that time they were calling the Shunzhi marked bronze bottles "Mark & Period"; Bob Stevens believed the one dated 1646 was really that old!!    
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Tom B.

Tom B.
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« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2016, 12:59:50 pm »

I think you misunderstand Giovanni's remark about the circa 45 degree angle.  First let me say that with a molded bottle all surfaces are in their original state. 

If your bottle were a carved lacquer example we could explain the various surfaces using the attached image:

1.the green arrow points to a surface that would be at a circa 90 degree angle to the original outer surface before carving

2. the two black arrows point to outer edges of one 'carved out' petal and the yellow line is at approximately the deepest area of that petal.  I would say that the angle between either of the black arrows to the yellow line is roughly 45 degrees and that is why it would be possible to see the layers on that surface area.


* Lacquer Bottle Marcos3carved petals.jpg (126.88 KB, 512x738 - viewed 11 times.)
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Tom B.

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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2016, 03:32:57 pm »

I am not sure if I have been understood correctly. Let see. The layers are thin layers applied on the body. So each layer is absolutely parallel to the layer below it, until reaching the body. So each layer is parallel to the body. Right? There are no doubt about that. Now dear Marcos, the direction of the petals as you have shown in your two last pictures is at about 45 degrees from the AXIS of the bottle, or from its base if you wish. But at that position the petals are parallel to the outer surface of the ovoid body, if we could see it. Donít you agree? So, the layers within the recessed area of each petal MUST look like those seen in the picture that you took from the website  https://www.realorrepro.com/article/Cinnabar, i.e more or less concentric oblong circles. The only areas on which we should see the layers stacked as we see on the petals of your bottle are the vertical areas (vertical referred to the surface of the body) like for example the sides of the character Shou.
Giovanni
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Tom B.
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 04:56:25 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

Yes I see what you mean now.  At a casual glance the rings in those two images look the same, but they are not.  I made a macro comparison with two numbered arrows to show the difference that you pointed out.

Arrow 1 points to the outer layer that was not carved

Arrow 2 points to the exposed layers at the top of a petal

I put a wavy line at deepest area of that petal to show that is mostly one layer as it should be.

I put a wavy line on the same area of Marcos' petal to show that the mold maker misunderstood the way it should look.

I hope that everyone can understand what I am trying show.


* Lacquer Bottle Marcos3aCompare.jpg (100.72 KB, 709x489 - viewed 16 times.)
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Best regards,

Tom B.

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