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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
November 20, 2017, 12:54:58 pm
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Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.

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Question: 3qzBNO
EnAdwCNOTKtqMJJmuy - 0 (0%)
GuSluarfCnAxNxY - 0 (0%)
wMQmlQmjcVkgpQKS - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.  (Read 1824 times)
Steven
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2016, 03:33:21 pm »

Yes, that is it. But your bottle doesn't have  "Yun Jeng" signed.
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Joey
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2016, 06:12:55 pm »

Steven,

     YOU AMAZE ME! And I'm a bit angry at myself for even doubting you a moment. 
You are correct, and there is no reason that this can not be a late 18th/early 19th C. glass bottle made to hold medicine, and then used (or reused?) as a bottle for painting in.

    And Marcos, please put me on the waitlist if you decide to sell the bottle! I guess I'm after George and Steven... Or am I after others, as well?  Cheesy

Best to all - Happy Purim to the Jews, Happy Easter to Christians of the 'Western Churches' (Greeks, Coptics  and Armenians celebrate it in a month),
Joey
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2016, 07:39:50 pm »

Wow Steven

I would not have guessed this in a million years. Still stumps me that there were overlay bottles that early which may actually mean that some of my overlay IP bottles could be much earlier than originally thought

You are amazing indeed!
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Pat
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Steven
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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 09:22:52 pm »

Still stumps me that there were overlay bottles that early which may actually mean that some of my overlay IP bottles could be much earlier than originally thought



There are always some exceptions,  try to look through your shandong bottles( I know that you have a quite a lot), you might find some surprises there.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 09:45:43 pm »

Dear Pat,

      We know that there has been glass overlay in the snuff bottle and medicine bottle repertoire since Kangxi at least.
It is just that we have gotten into the habit of slotting this type of overlay bottle into 'Shandong School - 1890-1930'
automatically, without taking into account any other option. And ALL the Early Period bottles seemed to be quartz.

     I wrote to Steven that I had a 'BIG doubt' when first he suggested it might be Early Period.
Good I didn't say, "If you are right, I'll eat my hat!"  Wink Grin Embarrassed
Boy do I feel like the last little pic on the previous line.

Best,
Joey

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

marcos
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2016, 12:24:26 pm »

Hi Steven,

Just curious about Yiru Jushi.

Is he indeed (Aisin Gioro) Hongwu (1743 -1811), grandson of the Kangxi Emperor?

Do you think his calligraphy matches the one on this painting?

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2005/the-arts-of-the-buddha-n08147/lot.58.html




* 1.jpg (141.02 KB, 667x1024 - viewed 13 times.)
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Steven
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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2016, 04:30:39 pm »

Hi Marcos,

I don't think those two are same person, hong wu 's calligraphy is much better quality than the one in bottle. Also think about it, if the bottle was painted by him , he could be in his 60s,  I don't think anybody can paint inside painting at that age ,specailly at that period .

Steven
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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2016, 06:21:06 pm »

Dear Marcos,

      During the first 50+ years of Inside Painting (ca.1797 to 1850), it was almost totally a 'Southern' thing, being done in Guangdong Province.
 
      But Yiru Jushi painted in Beijing, ca.1801-1811. Identifying him with the Prince Hongwu is another of a certain dealer's flights of fancy. There is evidence that he had a Manchu name, and thus was a Manchu (Han Chinese did not adopt 'Barbarian' Manchu names).
Most probably he was a Literatus in the capital.

   Best,
Joey
 
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George
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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2016, 07:47:18 pm »

This is getting deep !
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« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2016, 01:55:11 am »



Back to my concern at beginning, is possible the bottle itself can be dated 1808, the answer is possible, The bottle might not made for the inside painted for purpose, could be a medicine bottle as that time, please note the bottle's mouth is quite different with the later shandong bottles which were made for inside painting , the mouth is quite bigger, and I have not seen that big mouth in middle period bottles. its a sign for earlier bottle.



Maybe this is something...

  "Chinese Snuff Bottles, George and Mary Bloch, pg 575. Bonshan was one of Yiru Jushi's art names and appears on another bottle, painted in identical style which has both the signatures, Banshan, and Yiru Jushi.
  Unlike other artists of the early school, such as Gan Xuanwen and Chen Quan, whose rock crystal snuff bottles were made for the purpose, Yiru Jushi appears to have made use of existing old rock crystal snuff bottles, sometimes plain, and sometimes with carved decoration".

Perhaps he did also make use of other "exsisting" earlier bottles as well..
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« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2016, 03:55:36 am »

Dear George,

      I am coming around to the same thought. "great minds think alike...."   Grin Roll Eyes
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2016, 11:06:15 pm »

Hi Joey,

I understood from earlier posts that inside painting originated in Beijing (Jing) school and then spread to the South.

Also, I found an interesting observation here [url][/https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18456/lot/68/url] "The bottles themselves strongly suggest (...) a connection to the court at Beijing."

Regards,

Marcos
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« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2016, 11:19:34 pm »

Try that link again Marcos...

If you want, just copy and paste the url right into the reply message..
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« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2016, 11:20:46 pm »

Here we go.. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18456/lot/68/

This is really getting deep !!

Marcos, your going to find yourself with a forum detective badge pretty soon !!

"If Gan followed Yiru jushi, he may have seen this bottle or another like it, perhaps while serving at court in the first decade of the nineteenth century and acquired a similarly shaped bottle. By reversing the chronological order of Gan and Yiru jushi, as we now have, we can expect Gan and his circle to have been influenced by Yiru jushi, and doing a similarly calligraphic work (significantly Gan's only known solely calligraphic work) inside a bottle of the same shape would not be unusual".

"The range of bottles used by Yiru jushi is additional circumstantial evidence that he worked from 1801–1811 rather than from 1861–1871 as previously thought. He obviously painted inside a variety of bottles, gathered from many different sources, unlike Gan Xuanwen who appears to have had a manufacturer make for him the majority of his blanks. In Yiru jushi's works we see a series of imperial shapes, alongside others which might have come from anywhere, and several with carved surfaces indicating that they were not, originally, intended to be painted inside and may even pre-date the art form entirely. Every single one of his extant works is inside a bottle that would be reasonably dated to the period from the mid-eighteenth century to 1811. There is none that obviously postdates 1811. It seems reasonable to assume that had Yiru jushi been painting between 1861 and 1871, he would have used some bottles that more obviously reflect his working period. No such bottles are in evidence. The bottles themselves strongly suggest the earlier period, and a connection to the court at Beijing with the preponderance of probably imperial forms among his works".
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« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2016, 06:00:27 am »


    For a long time it has been accepted among educated snuff bottle collectors that Inside Painting was inspired by reverse painted works made in Guangzhou (Canton) for the Western (especially German) market, following a mainly German and Bohemian art- and craft- form, and which began to be produced in the last third of the 18th C. in Canton.

   The earliest Inside Painted snuff bottle that we know of, YF Yang has in his private collection. It is a signed and dated Gan Xuanwen bottle, 1797 and dated 2nd year of Jiaqing Emperor.

    The material you are quoting is the BS of a certain dealer, who was 'branding' Yiru Jushi', after he had amassed enough of YRJS bottles to make it worth his while. And thus, Yiru Jushi is now valued like Ding Erzhong, thanks to the dealer who played the same trick with Ding's bottles, after he'd amassed enough of them, and not like Yu Shuyun, who is much rarer (only 8 known, and I have 5. Bloch had the other three), but much cheaper.

   Best,
Joey

    If it was started in the Court, WHY was it started? What was the impetus to paint on the interior surface of a vessel which was then to be filled with material, and which would then be scraped out?
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« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2016, 11:36:39 am »

Hi George,

Thanks for fixing my link. I didnīt realized I messed up the hmlt tags.

I would love to have a forum detective badge, but as Joey has pointed out to me, there is more things going on than meets the eyes. Indeed, if one is trying to "brand" an artist, creating an Imperial pedigree is quite clever.

Joey raised an interesting point: why would someone paint inside a bottle that eventually would be scraped out? On the other hand, I myself have a Tang Tzi Chuan with snuff stains inside. http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html

Was it misused by a Western Barbarian who didnīt know better or was it intended to serve as "impermanent" art (like mandalas)?
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« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2016, 04:31:36 pm »

Dear Marcos,

      Early Period bottles WERE made to be used. I have a number of Gan Xuanwen, Chen Quan, and even Middle Period bottles (like your Tang Zichuan) that were used. I'm just saying that there is no 'paper trail' to lead back from an early IPSB made in the Court in Beijing, whereas there is such a clear connection to reverse paintings in Canton (Guangzhou).
Best,
Joey


Hi George,

Thanks for fixing my link. I didnīt realized I messed up the hmlt tags.

I would love to have a forum detective badge, but as Joey has pointed out to me, there is more things going on than meets the eyes. Indeed, if one is trying to "brand" an artist, creating an Imperial pedigree is quite clever.

Joey raised an interesting point: why would someone paint inside a bottle that eventually would be scraped out? On the other hand, I myself have a Tang Tzi Chuan with snuff stains inside. http://snuffbottle.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2956.0.html

Was it misused by a Western Barbarian who didnīt know better or was it intended to serve as "impermanent" art (like mandalas)?
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George
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« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2016, 07:07:06 pm »

Dear Marcos,

      Early Period bottles WERE made to be used.

Yes.., so does it affect the value Marcos ?  Yes, but on the other side of the coin, there is a special appeal knowing that a bottle was actually used. And no denying it is his works, which are limited..  Add this one to my wish list of bottles that you might part with in the future..  Wink
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« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2016, 08:36:08 pm »

Dear Marcos,

      I have learned a lot from Y.F. Yang, the 3rd or 4th generation snuff bottle dealer, originally from Beijing, now living in Honolulu.
I asked him about whether I should try to clean the snuff staining on one of my Early Period bottles, a landscape attributed to Gan Xuanwen.
   
     He said to imagine it was a painting on silk which had aged and yellowed with the centuries. So I then asked if I should put snuff in all my IPSBs, to reproduce the effect.  His answer was: "NO! If it is clean, leave it clean. But if it is snuff-stained, make a virtue of necessity and think about it in a different way". Which is very 'Daoist' in thinking for a Chinese Moslem like Y.F. Yang! Grin

     Personally, I do not think it lowers the value, unless there is a lot of damage to the painting from scraping by the snuff spoon.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2016, 08:58:30 pm »



     Personally, I do not think it lowers the value, unless there is a lot of damage to the painting from scraping by the snuff spoon.
Best,
Joey

Yes, absolutely...
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