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Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.

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Question: 3qzBNO
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Author Topic: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.  (Read 1824 times)
Joey
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« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2016, 07:46:19 am »

Dear George,
 
     Thanks for the info, though I have the late Al Stempel's article - I've just not re-read it recently. I do remember that Julie Stempel made some of the best fish stew I'd ever tasted, when I ate dinner in their home in 1978 in Hong Kong.

     'Boshan' is the present Pinyin romanization of the Chinese name, and is pretty much the universally used version today, George.
'Po Shan' is the Wade-Giles version....
Best,
Joey

my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?Smiley



I don't think it wrong.  If Early Period painting is 1800 to 1870, then it would be correct for an Early artist ( 19th century ) painting in a 19th glass bottle. What am I missing in your question Steven ?

Marcos, a little more about Boshan/Po Shan glass..

This is from an article, Inside Painted Snuff Bottles of the Shantung School", A Stempel, Arts Of Asia, December, 1976.

( Also for Joey ) "The art in Shandong/Shantung area goes back to 1890, with at least one known bottle bearing that date, but the top quality referred to dates from only the 1970's. To fully understand the origin of this school, it must be realized that Po Shan has been and still is one of the three major glass manufacturing areas in China. Po Shan has been a glass center for about 400 years, certainly well back into the Ming dynasty, and when a continuing source was needed to fill the ever increasing demand in Peking, not so far away, for bottles which the resurrected art of painting could be carried out, it was the obvious choice. ( I ( the author ) use the term "resurrected" because inside painted bottles were produced in China much earlier in the nineteenth century, during a period known as the "Early School", but in much smaller numbers than at the end of the century. It is not certain if Peking was the only center of this earlier painting, but there is little reason to doubt that Po Shan was the source of the glass bottles even then.)"

On a side note Marcos. In my previous post where I tell of Boshan being the source, here it is spelled Po Shan.  I can not recall where I picked up my Boshan spelling from.
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 09:15:24 am »

Hi, I am sending more pictures from different angles. This bottle is not easy to photograph.

Hi George,

Thanks for the extra information regarding Boshan glass.

It measures 6.2 cm without the stopper.

Thanks a lot for your help.










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Steven
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2016, 09:26:58 am »

Nice photos Marcos, altho I still can't see any signature on it, but its fun bottle to talk through.Smiley

-George, My question is that if the bottle was a early bottle, then it has to be 1808 instead of 1868,I don't call 1868 as early period .so the glass bottle itself need to be dated late 18th C-very early 19th ., but so far, I have not seen any shandong glass overlay bottle dated that early.
-YT, I do agree that most of early bottles were painted in the crystal bottles as a rule, could it be some exceptions?

Steven
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2016, 09:46:12 am »

Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       Shandong School started in the late Middle Period (ca.1890), to the best of my recollection (from reading; I wasn't there then. Roll Eyes Cheesy).
Best,
Joey


Nice photos Marcos, altho I still can't see any signature on it, but its fun bottle to talk through.Smiley

-George, My question is that if the bottle was a early bottle, then it has to be 1808 instead of 1868,I don't call 1868 as early period .so the glass bottle itself need to be dated late 18th C-very early 19th ., but so far, I have not seen any shandong glass overlay bottle dated that early. but it could be some existing, we just don't know...

-YT, I agree that most of early bottles were painted in the crystal bottles as a rule, could it be some exceptions?

Steven
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2016, 12:06:50 pm »

By the way, Happy Purim Joey.
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 04:04:36 pm »

Dear Marcos,

        Happy Purim to you!
       I'm in Jerusalem, so we celebrate Shushan Purim (like all cities which were walled in the time of Joshua's conquest, which included Susa, Persia's capital (Shushan, in Hebrew), and Jerusalem). So we read the Megilla tomorrow evening and Fri. morning.
For me, it is also my Hebrew birthday (17.Mar. is my civil birthday).
Best to all, except any Agaggites!  Angry   Roll Eyes Grin
Joey


By the way, Happy Purim Joey.
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 04:19:49 pm »

Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2016, 04:38:13 pm »

Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..

Thanks George for clarification. If we all agree with the bottle is a middle period bottle, then we don't have any argument. However I still suspect it can be a early period bottle painted in a shandong overlay bottle instead of in a quartz bottle as it normally was.  But only if the glass overlay bottle itself can be dated 1800 which I have a little doubt.

Steven

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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2016, 05:02:39 pm »

Steven,

     I have a 'big' doubt, that there were Shandong style overlay glass bottles in 1808 (for the cyclical date to be right).  Wink
Good luck, though.  Roll Eyes
Joey


Dear Steven,
   
       I think George means 'early' for Shandong School, NOT for Inside Painting.
       Inside Painting started late 18th C. (YF Yang has a bottle dated 1797 (Ding Si), 2nd year Jiaqing Emperor), and Early Period continued till ca.1850. 
       

Yes,, early for Shandong is what I meant..

Thanks George for clarification. If we all agree with the bottle is a middle period bottle, then we don't have any argument. However I still suspect it can be a early period bottle painted in a shandong overlay bottle instead of in a quartz bottle as it normally was.  But only if the glass overlay bottle itself can be dated 1800 which I have a little doubt.

Steven


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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2016, 07:08:35 pm »

Best I can contribute to this particular scene is to perhaps consider it being related to "woodcutter with his load", the woodcutter being one of the Four Honored Professions as Joey talks about in Worlds..  Perhaps the other man is simply a beggar ?  Other than that, I have searched and not able to find a similar scene or partial scene that matches. 

Was hoping we might see a date on one of the two sides with the new pics, but I can not see one.. Beyond that Marcos, am going to have to lean on our Chinese members to help more with the visible scripts..

One last possibility is that we are looking at a Woodcutter and Fisherman theme as Tom talks about here.. Perhaps that is a fishing pole and basket full of fish, and offering some to the passing Woodcutter...  ?


* woodcutter.jpg (109.29 KB, 459x470 - viewed 19 times.)
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2016, 07:48:24 pm »

Following this exchange with interest. I have never seen a signed Shandong bottle before 1895 and I personally don't believe there were any before that. In fact some Chinese think that Le San and Bi Rongjiu are one and the same people and that Le San was just a pen name. This could be true as Le San dated bottles don't appear after 1900.  At least I have not seen any or heard of any. This could indeed mean that Bi Rongjiu had improved significantly by that time.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 01:14:46 am by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 11:57:56 pm »

There is one script when someone has time that I am more curious about than others..


* script.jpg (108.95 KB, 407x585 - viewed 13 times.)
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2016, 12:04:16 am »

Dear George,

福如东海 is just a greeting for happiness and fortune.

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2016, 12:05:33 am »

Ok then.., thank you YT !
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2016, 12:37:42 am »

After the research of the day, I think that I might find the artist.Smiley it might still has a quite bit discussion tho. I will share with you tomorrow, Kinda of tired after a long day. 
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2016, 06:20:08 am »

Dear Pat,

      Thank you for reinforcing my belief that the Shandong School is  from Zhou Leyuan's period (1880-1893) or just after.
Best,
Joey


Following this exchange with interest. I have never seen a signed Shandong bottle before 1895 and I personally don't believe there were any before that. In fact some Chinese think that Le San and Bi Rongjiu are one and the same people and that Le San was just a pen name. This could be true as Le San dated bottles don't appear after 1900.  At least I have not seen any or heard of any. This could indeed mean that Bi Rongjiu had improved significantly by that time.
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2016, 12:24:43 pm »

Let go back to this bottle, most of you guys might call me crazy....

But I am 90% positive that is a early inside painting bottle, not for shandong school, but painted by YiRujuShi.

Here are the comparison I have done, Both the painting style and the calligraphy matched very well, I didn't notice the 半山 (Ban shan) was a art name until last night,   I don't think its a old copy either, since the painting can be copied, not the calligraphy like that.

Back to my concern at beginning, is possible the bottle itself can be dated 1808, the answer is possible, The bottle might not made for the inside painted for purpose, could be a medicine bottle as that time, please note the bottle's mouth is quite different with the later shandong bottles which were made for inside painting , the mouth is quite bigger, and I have not seen that big mouth in middle period bottles. its a sign for earlier bottle.

So after all, I tend to think the bottle is a early period bottle painted by YIRUJUSHI, not a very exciting bottle, but really interesting.( Add me to the list, if you want to part with it one day Marcos.Smiley

I am ready to discuss further....Smiley

Steven


* YLJS.jpg (279.29 KB, 800x500 - viewed 31 times.)

* YLJS2.jpg (214.03 KB, 800x500 - viewed 28 times.)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 12:40:39 pm by Steven » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2016, 02:59:38 pm »

Dear Steven,

Great job! That is very interesting.

Note Yiru Jushi painted the same scene in 1805 on a crystal bottle (and the scene after the Ming painter Shen Zhou / Shi Tian).

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/18592/lot/124/
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20309/lot/4/

Now, on both examples at Bonhams they mention a Manchurian script signature "Yun Jeng". Did you notice any Manchurian signature?

Cheers!


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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2016, 03:10:24 pm »

While typing, Marcos found the comparison bottles .. Good job Marcos !

Another amazing piece of detective work Steven !   Sure a striking resemblance between the Woodcutter paintings ..  Seems like a perfect match and by the same hand.

I hesitate to comment about the calligraphy, but there seem to be some noticeable differences ...  I do understand and see your observation for the mouth, and I might include that the base as well is different than most.. The wide mouth is sure a plus for early bottle.

Have never seen any bottles with multiple panels as this labeled as medicine bottle before.. But most bottles I compare for possible previous medicinal use are via Raymond Li's books.  Not to say is not possible and certainly an option.





* comparisn.jpg (197.31 KB, 545x688 - viewed 12 times.)
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2016, 03:20:09 pm »

Hi Steven,

I also noticed that Hugh Moss mentions an Yunfeng signature "in cursive script, and one seal of the artist, Yunfeng".

http://www.e-yaji.com/auction/photo.php?photo=1668&exhibition=12&ee_lang=eng

Could that be it?





* DSC08735.jpg (95.11 KB, 800x537 - viewed 17 times.)
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