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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
August 22, 2017, 04:10:41 am
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Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.

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Question: 3qzBNO
EnAdwCNOTKtqMJJmuy - 0 (0%)
GuSluarfCnAxNxY - 0 (0%)
wMQmlQmjcVkgpQKS - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: Cannot identify the artist on this bottle.  (Read 1718 times)
marcos
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« on: March 22, 2016, 11:34:07 am »

Dear All,

I am having a hard time identifying the painter of this bottle. The date is winter of 1868 or 1928.

The painting is a bit faded so doesn´t help much.

Also, what kind of glass is that?

Thanks once again.








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George
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2016, 03:19:54 pm »

I really, really like this one.

I bit perplexed as having a hard time matching up what look like signatures, but sort of looks like multiple artists painted and signed..

I bet you will have have answers form the pros before I have a can even decipher this in part.. 

Most glass that was used by these Shandong students was purchased from the Boshan glass shops.  As you must have noticed, a different feel than most glass. If your correct on the possible date, then between the 1868 and 1928 choices, it makes more sense at 1928..  I am having a bit of a hard time with this to Marcos. But am searching ...

Nice bottle Marcos !

« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 03:52:46 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2016, 03:55:00 pm »

Can you add a couple more pics showing the script on both "sides" of the bottle.. The side area along side the painted panels.
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Steven
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« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2016, 05:02:40 pm »

Hi Marcos,

Yes, I agree with George, that is an interesting shandong bottle, I tend to agree with George on the date 1928, but can't make out the artist.

Best!

Steven
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« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2016, 05:04:53 pm »

Dear Marcos,
 
      That is an interesting Shandong bottle.
      It looks like it could almost be 1868, but I'm not sure the Shandong artists were painting that early.
I could have seen 1890s, but based on the cyclical date it has to be either 1868 or 1928, so it must be the latter.

     George's comment that it looks like multiple artists and signatures, sounds interesting, and indeed it looks like a scroll
done as a joint effort by  a number of artists.

     I'm not an expert on Shandong. Better Steven, Charll, or Pat. But I will be waiting to see how they weigh in.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2016, 05:06:16 pm »

Dear Steven,

      What about George's idea that a number of artists might have inscribed/collaborated on it?
Best,
Joey


Hi Marcos,

Yes, I agree with George, that is an interesting shandong bottle, I tend to agree with George on the date 1928, but can't make out the artist.

Best!

Steven
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Steven
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2016, 05:15:05 pm »

Dear Joey,

As I can tell, there is no signature on the bottle, so I don't think a number of artists will be the case.

Best,

Steven
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« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2016, 05:23:05 pm »

Darn. It would have made a good story.  Roll Eyes Angry Grin

   I have a scroll painting of orchids with 7 colophons (accompanying inscriptions) each by a different artist.
Best,
Joey
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George
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 06:57:11 pm »

I have not looked through the books yet, but the one scene seems familiar, Maybe a peddler/merchant scene.

This is a hard one..  Would really like to see additional pics for the script along the sides of the bottle.

Thanks for letting us know there are no artists signatures..  But I think there may well be "a story to be told" throughout the bottle.. Just not able to piece it together yet..

On a side note, if you ever wish to part with it, please put me top of list  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 07:50:15 pm »

If the bottle was painted by a shandong artist,  there is no many stories to tell.

But the painting does remind me an early period bottle, my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 07:53:48 pm »

What if it is a really good fake, done in the 1980s in a late 19th C. bottle  to fool collectors. It could be faded by being put in direct sunlight. Just a wild guess. I also thought it could be earlier. How early do we find Shandong work?
Best,
Joey


If the bottle was painted by a shandong artist,  there is no many stories to tell.

But the painting does remind me an early period bottle, my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 08:10:48 pm »

I have never seen this kind of fake before, but there is a possibility there. 

Dear Joey, can you make out the date on the glass bottle itself? if you can, and the bottle itself it earlier than early period, then I will find out the story.Smiley

Steven
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« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 08:44:24 pm »

Dear Steven,
 
      I found WUCHEN, 1868 or 1928, in the panel with one piece of bamboo sticking up.
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 08:56:37 pm »

Dear Joey,

Yes, George did make out the date, my question is that will you make out the date range of the glass bottle itself , not the date the bottle being painted. If the glass bottle is dated before early period , then this painting can be a early bottle.

Steven
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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 09:04:25 pm »

Dear Steven,
 
      Sorry. I did not understand what you wanted before. And I'm also sorry, but I don't collect Shandong bottles.
The best to ask are Charll, George, Pat, Pin, or yourself.  Grin
I thought the bottle looked ca.1880-1920.
But I'm not an expert on Shandong.
It is very funny - we know more and more about less and less, until we know everything about nothing!  Grin (I did not make this up; someone else did!).
Best,
Joey
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 09:10:13 pm »

This is a genuine 1928 bottle like many in my collection ... Remember the Shandong artists never stopped painting even during the war and occupation years. This is likely Wen Quan, Ru Ting or Zhang Wentang based on date.

Here is a 1940 Wen Quan in my collection:

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay%5Cgreen_panels.htm
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 10:06:05 pm by Pat » Report Spam   Logged

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Pat
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marcos
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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 09:12:47 pm »

Hi George,

Indeed a tough one. Partly I am to blame as the pictures are not very clear. Tomorrow I will take better pictures from different angles. The ink is fading a little bit as well.

I am sure I have seen the scene with the two guys before, probably in a painting. Apparently the scene immitates (彷) one Shi Tian something Shan (石田)??

Thanks for the explanation regarding Shandong bottles. That is something new I learnt today.

I am happy you liked the bottle.

Steven,

Although there are no signatures, don't you think the caligraphy was done by different artists?



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« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 09:44:40 pm »

Dear Marcos,

I believe the calligraphy is done by same person , it looks consistently to me.

Looking forward to seeing more photos, kinda interesting bottle.

Steven
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2016, 02:05:50 am »

my question is that how a early period artist paint it on a late 19th glass bottle?Smiley



I don't think it wrong.  If Early Period painting is 1800 to 1870, then it would be correct for an Early artist ( 19th century ) painting in a 19th glass bottle. What am I missing in your question Steven ?

Marcos, a little more about Boshan/Po Shan glass..

This is from an article, Inside Painted Snuff Bottles of the Shantung School", A Stempel, Arts Of Asia, December, 1976.

( Also for Joey ) "The art in Shandong/Shantung area goes back to 1890, with at least one known bottle bearing that date, but the top quality referred to dates from only the 1970's. To fully understand the origin of this school, it must be realized that Po Shan has been and still is one of the three major glass manufacturing areas in China. Po Shan has been a glass center for about 400 years, certainly well back into the Ming dynasty, and when a continuing source was needed to fill the ever increasing demand in Peking, not so far away, for bottles which the resurrected art of painting could be carried out, it was the obvious choice. ( I ( the author ) use the term "resurrected" because inside painted bottles were produced in China much earlier in the nineteenth century, during a period known as the "Early School", but in much smaller numbers than at the end of the century. It is not certain if Peking was the only center of this earlier painting, but there is little reason to doubt that Po Shan was the source of the glass bottles even then.)"

On a side note Marcos. In my previous post where I tell of Boshan being the source, here it is spelled Po Shan.  I can not recall where I picked up my Boshan spelling from.
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« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2016, 03:01:11 am »

This is a genuine 1928 bottle like many in my collection ... Remember the Shandong artists never stopped painting even during the war and occupation years. This is likely Wen Quan, Ru Ting or Zhang Wentang based on date.

Here is a 1940 Wen Quan in my collection:

http://snuffbottlecollector.com/_antique/overlay%5Cgreen_panels.htm
Dear all,

I agreed with Pat and many others on the 20th assumption.
The overlay glass quality does not look 19th, moreover most of the early works are not painted on glass especially overlay. I have bottles from DuSong JuShi, YiRu JuShi and Gan XuanWen which are all crystals.


Dear Marcos,

Can I know the height of the bottle excluding the stopper?

Cheers,
YT
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:02:42 am by YT » Report Spam   Logged
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