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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
April 19, 2018, 12:06:19 pm
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Black Glass Snuff Bottle

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Author Topic: Black Glass Snuff Bottle  (Read 201 times)
George
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« on: March 13, 2016, 07:29:58 pm »

I do not have this in hand yet. But curious if anyone would like to guess from these pics if it likely this is actually an overlay ?  Thinking maybe will end up being an opaque black overlay over opaque base bottle. Does not seem like they would have shaped the base bottle thick enough to do all this carving..

Just not familiar with a bottle like this.


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Joey
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 07:48:20 pm »

Dear George,
 
    Why is it not just a carved single color glass bottle?  Where is the 'overlay'?
Best,
Joey


I do not have this in hand yet. But curious if anyone would like to guess from these pics if it likely this is actually an overlay ?  Thinking maybe will end up being an opaque black overlay over opaque base bottle. Does not seem like they would have shaped the base bottle thick enough to do all this carving..

Just not familiar with a bottle like this.

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2016, 07:57:44 pm »

Dear George,
 
    Why is it not just a carved single color glass bottle?  Where is the 'overlay'?
Best,
Joey


I do not have this in hand yet. But curious if anyone would like to guess from these pics if it likely this is actually an overlay ?  Thinking maybe will end up being an opaque black overlay over opaque base bottle. Does not seem like they would have shaped the base bottle thick enough to do all this carving..

Just not familiar with a bottle like this.


That is what I am unsure about.. It just seemed more likely an overlay because of how thick it is..  You may be correct Joey, and may well find once it arrives that it is not an overlay and in fact a solid piece..

If it is an overlay of same color, will I be able to see ( under magnification ? ) where the two meet ? 

I would like very much to find it a solid piece..
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 07:59:45 pm by George » Report Spam   Logged

Joey
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 06:51:04 am »

Dear George,

       If you mean that there are two shades of black, that of the base bottle and that of the carved layer; sure, you should be able to see where the cutting goes from one shade into the other.
      If however, the glass is all the same shade, it is simply carved monochrome glass. No need to use the word 'overlay', since, in effect there is NO overlaid different glass.

      To me it looks like a carved black Glass bottle imitating  carved Jet.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 09:20:42 am »


George,

Given how rounded the edges of the design are, this bottle screams to me to be blown molded glass.  It appears that just some of the added details on the surface of the design are ground.  If so this would be a single color, likely imitating jet as Joey indicated.  Also, I suspected this is a modern bottle.

Charll 
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

George
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 11:47:57 am »

Dear George,

       If you mean that there are two shades of black, that of the base bottle and that of the carved layer; sure, you should be able to see where the cutting goes from one shade into the other.
      If however, the glass is all the same shade, it is simply carved monochrome glass. No need to use the word 'overlay', since, in effect there is NO overlaid different glass.

      To me it looks like a carved black Glass bottle imitating  carved Jet.
Best,
Joey

Thank you Joey..  I will post again when it arrives, but I think you are correct about the imitating of Jet.  Jet was the one that stood out the most likely for me too..
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 04:33:35 pm »

Dear Charll,

     I think you are correct on both counts. It's funny, because George used the term 'Overlay', I got hung up on that issue, and just tried to deal with it. But it definitely looks mold blown, and most probably newer rather than older.

     But still an interesting example.
Best,
Joey




George,

Given how rounded the edges of the design are, this bottle screams to me to be blown molded glass.  It appears that just some of the added details on the surface of the design are ground.  If so this would be a single color, likely imitating jet as Joey indicated.  Also, I suspected this is a modern bottle.

Charll 
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 05:25:33 pm »

Dear Charll,
if the bottle is molded, how it has been made the mold in your opinion? I mean, which is the way it has been made:
a) the mold has been carved, or
b) the mold has been made by doing the matrix of a carved bottle
Which is the more probable way in your opinion?
Giovanni
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 06:33:08 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

      I got the impression that Charll thinks it is modern, in which case it is not hard to make a modern mold in plaster, or in extruded plastic even.  I also question its age.
Joey



Dear Charll,
if the bottle is molded, how it has been made the mold in your opinion? I mean, which is the way it has been made:
a) the mold has been carved, or
b) the mold has been made by doing the matrix of a carved bottle
Which is the more probable way in your opinion?
Giovanni

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2016, 06:45:47 am »

Dear Joey,
my question is meant to understand the process of making the mold for this bottle, regardless the material. One can directly carve the mold, i.e. the negative mold of the final bottle, and use it directly to mold the bottles. Or one can carve a bottle, than make the mold onto it, what we call as "calco". It seems that the English as usual is a very unspecific language, both the mold and the calco has the same name in English.
So, how was made the mold for this bottle? A directly carved mold or the “calco” of a carved bottle?
Giovanni
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2016, 08:43:06 am »

Dear Giovanni,

      You got me!  Grin Roll Eyes
Best,
Joey



Dear Joey,
my question is meant to understand the process of making the mold for this bottle, regardless the material. One can directly carve the mold, i.e. the negative mold of the final bottle, and use it directly to mold the bottles. Or one can carve a bottle, than make the mold onto it, what we call as "calco". It seems that the English as usual is a very unspecific language, both the mold and the calco has the same name in English.
So, how was made the mold for this bottle? A directly carved mold or the “calco” of a carved bottle?
Giovanni

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2016, 09:12:23 am »

Quote
So, how was the mold made for this bottle? A directly carved mold or the “calco” of a carved bottle?

Giovanni,

If it is indeed a molded bottle, I not sure there is any way verify how the mold was made unless you were there.  I would presume it is by using a carve bottle or a carved form, than making the mold onto it. 


Charll
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2016, 03:06:04 pm »

Dear Charll,
thank you. Let me explain why I did ask so. First point: if George’s bottle is molded, the mold has been made onto a carved bottle. There is no doubt about this, in my opinion, because a carved mold will never produce a bottle with the features seen here. If we look at the pictures shown by George, in particular at the recessed areas of the bottle, we see that those areas has all the features of the carved ones. Imagine the mold of that bottle, i.e. the negative version of what we see in the pictures. Imagine in your mind the raised areas of the mold, corresponding to the recessed areas of the bottle: should looks like that? It is impossible. A raised area will never show those shapes, clearly related to a deep carving, and not to a raised protrusion. So, following my thoughts, if the bottle has been made by mold, the mold in turn has been made onto a bottle. But then look at the deep carvings of the bottle, and the shape. I believe that it is not possible to made such a mold in less than four parts, besides that of the base. If not, it is not possible to remove the mold after the use, unless destroying it. That means that after molding, there would be many tracks of the mold joints that needs to be smoothed. Many tracks on a complicated carving. Hmmm… a quite complicate job. Not impossible, though.
All in all, there is another possibility. That the seller didn’t know about jet and he thought that bottle was glass while indeed it is jet. If so, not a bad deal, hein George?
I have not seen a single bubble on the surface of the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2016, 05:05:50 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

       What about a solid carved clay model, and then numerous latex molds made from it?  And the glass  then pumped in. One cuts away the latex mold, and voila! No joins, and it looks carved.
 
       Of course, if it really is Jet, George has lucked out! G-D Willing.
Best,
Joey



Dear Charll,
thank you. Let me explain why I did ask so. First point: if George’s bottle is molded, the mold has been made onto a carved bottle. There is no doubt about this, in my opinion, because a carved mold will never produce a bottle with the features seen here. If we look at the pictures shown by George, in particular at the recessed areas of the bottle, we see that those areas has all the features of the carved ones. Imagine the mold of that bottle, i.e. the negative version of what we see in the pictures. Imagine in your mind the raised areas of the mold, corresponding to the recessed areas of the bottle: should looks like that? It is impossible. A raised area will never show those shapes, clearly related to a deep carving, and not to a raised protrusion. So, following my thoughts, if the bottle has been made by mold, the mold in turn has been made onto a bottle. But then look at the deep carvings of the bottle, and the shape. I believe that it is not possible to made such a mold in less than four parts, besides that of the base. If not, it is not possible to remove the mold after the use, unless destroying it. That means that after molding, there would be many tracks of the mold joints that needs to be smoothed. Many tracks on a complicated carving. Hmmm… a quite complicate job. Not impossible, though.
All in all, there is another possibility. That the seller didn’t know about jet and he thought that bottle was glass while indeed it is jet. If so, not a bad deal, hein George?
I have not seen a single bubble on the surface of the bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni

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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2016, 06:21:11 pm »

I am having an off couple of days, and not online a whole lot..

Such interesting possibilities you guys..  I think the few, and almost microscopic white spots ( best seen on base ) would exclude Jet ? 
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 07:08:54 pm »

Dear George,

      To me they look like dirt, and not inclusions. I'm hoping it is Jet. That would be a real coup for you.
Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

George
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 07:36:21 pm »

Good to here you like what you see Joey..

Lots of really interesting ideas about how this one was made..  Without having it in hand, am still leaning towards your thought it may be imitating.. I do have some interesting comparisons to share when it arrives that seem to support this Early carved and not molded.
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 07:40:57 pm »

Giovanni,

Attached is an illustration of the blown mold process, and  examples of a 20th century Czech and French sent bottle.  The same process applies to snuff bottles.

Charll


* Postmold.jpg (104.06 KB, 962x602 - viewed 5 times.)

* Moldblowing.jpg (72.53 KB, 628x912 - viewed 5 times.)

* Czech Molded Bottle.jpg (92.6 KB, 600x450 - viewed 5 times.)

* Czech Molded Bottle_Base.jpg (93.91 KB, 600x450 - viewed 5 times.)

* French Molded Bottle_1921-1931.jpg (30.07 KB, 247x336 - viewed 5 times.)

* French Molded Bottle_1921-1931_Back.jpg (30.66 KB, 247x336 - viewed 2 times.)

* French Molded Bottle_1921-1931_Base.JPG (35.53 KB, 600x450 - viewed 4 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2016, 02:28:36 am »

Dear Joey,
the glass, to be pumped in, must be in fluid state, which menas that it is at a very high temperature, about 1000 degrees Celsius. No latex, nor any sintetic substance, can stand that temperature. To obtain a model with no joints, the technique is that of "lost wax", which is that of the bronze torso that you bought in Milan. But in that case after the molding the mold must be destroyed, which makes the resulting object as an unique model.
Dear Charll, what I meant is just that the depth of carving and the fact that it is a round bottle and not a flat one like the examples that you have shown, are telling us that it is not possible that George's bottle has been amde with a simple two halves mold. I believe that no less than three vertical parts are necessary, but most probably four.
More I look at the pictures and more I think that it is not glass. Note that the bottle has the same uniform surface matt appearance. Usually on glass bottles we see some difference in polishing between the exposed areas and the recessed ones.
Giovanni
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2016, 05:58:00 am »


I'm hoping it is Jet. That would be a real coup for you.


Dear Joey,
If it is indeed jet, George will know immediately he receives it and has a chance to handle it.
Jet is so much lighter than glass, and relatively warm to the touch.
Fingers crossed!

Dear Giovanni,
Thank you for the information on the molding process.

Regards,
Tom
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Tom
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