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A true black and white bottle

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Author Topic: A true black and white bottle  (Read 301 times)
Fiveroosters
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2016, 01:19:57 am »

Dear George,
I am not sure that I am understanding what you mean. Those shown by you are compacted stones, but what is it meant by “compacted”? It means that they are stones bind together by a binding medium, I mean each one is an individual stone. To be clear, the white crystals are not compacted with the black stone, that is a natural process. It is not possible that in my bottle the white crystals has been somehow joined to a black stone, if this is what you meant.
Giovanni
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George
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2016, 03:45:17 am »

Dear George,
I am not sure that I am understanding what you mean. Those shown by you are compacted stones, but what is it meant by “compacted”? It means that they are stones bind together by a binding medium, I mean each one is an individual stone. To be clear, the white crystals are not compacted with the black stone, that is a natural process. It is not possible that in my bottle the white crystals has been somehow joined to a black stone, if this is what you meant.
Giovanni


Yes, that was what I meant, and agree that the white crystals can't be compacted to the black agate.
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2016, 01:44:06 pm »

Dear George,
there is a misunderstanding. I said, to be clear, that my whole bottle comes from a single piece of stone, in other words it is not possible to take crystals of quanrtz and implement them into another compact stone. And did ask if that is what you meant by saying that it has been compacted.
You said: "Yes, that was what I meant, and agree that the white crystals can't be compacted to the black agate.", which does not make sense. One of us is not understanding right.
But there is a bad new here: a friend did send me the picture of a bottle that is on sale on ebay. That color is not natural in my opinion, it must be dyed. If so, it means that it is possible to dye the compact stone without affetting the crystals! Too bad!
Giovanni


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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2016, 04:19:48 pm »

Yes, I think did get mixed up about this... My fault and sorry to have been confusing..

I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2016, 08:52:28 pm »


I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.


George,

That is very interesting. When artificially dyed in this way, how deep does the colour go? I am assuming it does not sink much beyond the surface.

Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2016, 09:21:01 pm »


I do think there is a pretty good chance yours is dyed using sugar solution followed by sulphuric acid method. It looks like the solution started to seep into the crystal along the edges where it meets the black.


George,

That is very interesting. When artificially dyed in this way, how deep does the colour go? I am assuming it does not sink much beyond the surface.

Tom

Yes, ever so slightly below the surface.. I have never tried, but imagine that even a light abrasive sanding could remove it..
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 10:53:20 pm »

I tend to doubt the carbon acid method of dying mentioned was used. I am a little familiar with that carbon "sugar cooking" method as used for dying Andamooka opal matrix black, but have not seen it used for quartz and doubt it would work for hard stones. In the case of Andamooka matrix opal, it is cooked with acid and sugar solution, sometimes under vacuum, penetrates the sandstone-like matrix and dyes it, leaving the harder crystal fire opal fragments dye free. The color then stands out more against the black background. However, the dye only penetrates the sandstone-like matrix because that part is so porous to start with. The stone may have to undergo the treatment several times, and again after cutting, depending on how far the sugar penetrated. Finished stones are often also then treated with opticon to harden the now-blackened matrix because otherwise it might be too porous to take a high shine.

I DO suspect this snuff bottle is dyed, but by another method. There IS genuine black and white agate coming out of several places, including Ankara Turkey. Botswana agate can also come in shades of black, grey and white, so there is no way to know for absolute sure, but I feel this looks an awful lot like the dyed stuff I see coming out of China. A huge amount of stone coming out of China right now is dyed, in all different colors but especially black and white. It is presented as undyed, and often looks absolutely authentic (but it isn't.) Much of it is dyed onyx, but some is dyed chalcedony, agate and quartz as well. The dye DOES appear to penetrate through the stone and often only affects some bands in a stone and not others. (There is also lab grown quartz and minerals coming out of China in absurd quantities, but they sometimes forget and leave telltale marks on the bottoms of the crystals where they grew so people have learned to recognize them after a while.) 

Here is an example of some stones where they are NOT trying to hide that they have been dyed but are upfront about it, perhaps due to the unnatural color used.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/44-55Cts-EXCELLENT-FANTASTIC-DESIGNER-ONYX-AGATE-PAIR-OVAL-CABOCHON-GEMSTONE-/231855775593?hash=item35fbae5f69:g:yPIAAOSwT~9Wj4M~

Just to give one example of how good the dye is, I bought a piece of ridiculously cheap "chrysoprase" and even when placed side by side with a piece of chrysoprase I myself had just cut from the Australian rough and knew was authentic, I could not tell the difference in color, reflection, texture, or anything else at first. It was only by holding it up to the light and seeing that there were none of the customary internal characteristics of actual chrysoprase that convinced me it was (masterfully) dyed onyx. I also have purchased inexpensive banded onyx slabs, carnelian cabs and quartz "druzy" geode slices where only portions of the stone are dyed and the rest left untouched; presumably certain bands are more porous than others in the same stone. 40 years ago, my dad bought wood alcohol based stone dyes from Grieger's to sometimes treat his crazy lace agate or other stones with. They came as a powder and my dad mixed them with wood alcohol. If I recall correctly, the dye was heated, and the dye only stuck to some bands and avoided others, making for very colorful stones. However, this may be a new kind of dye that penetrates the stones even more.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:31:50 am by ileney » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2016, 07:10:52 am »

This is another example of the China material, but I don't know for sure that it is dyed though I believe that to be the case. It is possible that it is all a new natural stone that was found in the past few years. I just tend to doubt it because there is such quantity of it and because there are other colors, not just black. Look up black white druzy geode on ebay and you'll see hundreds of similar examples, some with banding, others with no banding but just the stark color demarkation.



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« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:17:35 am by ileney » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2016, 02:23:41 am »

Dear Ileney,
thank you very much for your interesting contribution. AS I said before I don't like dyed stones, mainly because the colors looks too much artificial. In case of black, it is a bit different.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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ileney
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2016, 06:36:35 pm »

You are welcome Giovanni! I actually have bought some of the dyed stones myself because some are very attractive. I just tell people I believe them to be dyed agate or onyx, as opposed to chrysoprase or naturally colored agate. (I also don't know for sure that the dye color will last as long as natural color, but probably it will.)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 06:38:07 pm by ileney » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2016, 07:15:24 pm »

Dear Ilene,

      Thank you for your contribution in this thread. It was very interesting and informative.
Best Wishes,
Joey

Dear Giovanni,

      It is a very attractive example. Thank you for posting it.
Best Wishes,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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