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Chinese Snuff Bottle Discussion Forum 中國鼻煙壺討論論壇
December 16, 2017, 08:33:45 pm
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A true black and white bottle

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Question: NZW1w
gwMKLlUWLfnwvZP
hdPuCgzEC
YasuAvevKJatrzZ
SCNaJOinbiQsxAgjQJz
qxjxCvlpYqz

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Author Topic: A true black and white bottle  (Read 312 times)
Fiveroosters
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« on: February 29, 2016, 09:45:35 am »

Dear all,
this is a stone bottle that I bought last week at an Antique fair. I have been captured by the high contrast between the black even, compact stone and the white crystals. The black area is completely opaque, the light doesn’t comes through, as you can see in the last picture where there is a LED lighting the inside of the bottle. The black is so pure black that I thought that the bottle could have been artificially colored, but in such case I think that we should see the black also among the crevices of the crystals. Do you think that it is possible to dye the compact stone alone? And what kind of stone could this be?
Thank you in advance. The bottle is 61 mm high, well hollowed and with concave lip, but I don’t think that it is antique.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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YT
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« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2016, 11:06:30 am »

Dear Giovanni,

I have seen black jadeite that is completely opaque and white jadeite that looks like that. Just cannot explain the purple glow of your LED light is supposedly white?

Still, my congratulations for a rare bottle. Thumbs up!!

Cheers,
YT
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« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2016, 12:28:43 pm »

Dear YT,
thank you. The purple tone is coming from the LED. The crystals of the stone are pure white. I don't think that it is jadeite, because of the crystals and because of the black and the white thin lines bordering the crystals area, see the detail here below. That is more typical of agate I think, but I am not sure. 
Kind regards
Giovanni


* IMG_1a.jpg (79.82 KB, 778x800 - viewed 13 times.)
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YT
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« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2016, 01:50:27 pm »

Dear Giovanni,

Thank you for the clarification. I have not seen a combination of both before but guess that there is such combinations.

Cheers,
YT
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Wattana
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2016, 12:18:18 am »

Dear Giovanni,

An interesting bottle! I have not seen one with this striking combination before. My guess is that it is made from two varieties of quartz, which fused together under immense heat and pressure millions of years ago.

The black part is crypto-crystalline quartz. I agree that it is unusual for this to be completely opaque, but it does sometimes occur. See, for example, jasper, which is chemically identical to quartz (silicone dioxide - SiO2).
The white part is clearly crystalline quartz. Patches of it are often found on agate snuff bottles.

The shape of your bottle is very elegant, but almost certainly modern.

Regards,
Tom     
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Tom
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2016, 12:52:30 am »

Dear Tom,
thank you. You are right about the crystal, I too think that it is quartz. What I don't know is on which type of stones the quartz crystals can develop. For sure agate and calcedony for what I know. Do you think that it is possible that the black is artificial? I hate artificially colored agates. What I don't know is if it is possible to dye the agate alone without affecting the quartz crystals.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2016, 02:42:45 am »

Dear Giovanni,

You misunderstood me. I am suggesting that the black stone is perfectly natural.  Agate, chalcedony, jasper and quartz are all varieties of silicone dioxide (SiO2). Jasper, which comes in many different colours, is completely opaque.  Using the word 'quartz' here is confusing, because there is a type of very dark smoky quartz, which looks black until you shine a light through it. That is a crystalline variety of SiO2. In the case of your bottle, it is NOT crystalline - therefore opaque. So, for want of a better description, we could call your stone 'black jasper'.

Regards,
Tom
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Tom
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2016, 07:31:11 am »

Thank you very much dear Tom. I was really afraid that the black could be somehow dyed. If natural, then I really like the striking contrast between the two areas of the bottle, and although not antique I am happy with this bottle.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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Joey
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2016, 08:55:31 am »

Dear Giovanni,

    It is striking, but I'm not sure about age, whether old or new. I will defer to Tom on this one, till I see it 'live'.

    Best,
Joey
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2016, 01:47:36 pm »

Thank you dear Joey,
you surely will see it, among other bottles.
Kind regards
Giovanni
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« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 01:53:31 pm »

Giovanni,

In my opinion your black and white bottle is outstanding as a result of the contrast.  Given the white crystalline inclusion I would think it is fairly well hollowed, but not overly so, and definitely not a "floater".  I too would  
surmise it to be a newer contemporary bottle.

Given that I'm attracted to this type of stone, I checked my mineralogy references to see if I could find a similar colored black stone with minute white banding with a crystal core or center.  I did find such a illustration, and as I suspected, it is a naturally colored black agate.  On the web there is a lot of illustrations of black agate presently coming out of Brazil.  

Agate and onyx are both varieties of layered chalcedony that differ only in the form of the bands: agate has curved bands and onyx has parallel bands. The colors of its bands range from white to almost every color (save some shades, such as purple or blue).

Thanks for sharing this lovely bottle.  Charll
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Charll K Stoneman, Eureka, California USA, Collector Since 1979.

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« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 04:40:06 pm »

Dear Charll,
thank you very much, after your comment I did search for black agate and found the following page, where we can see exactly this stone, coming from China:
http://www.stonecontact.com/products-168933/black-agate-stone
Here below a picture from that page.
The bottle is very well hollowed, much than was I expected when I saw it. It does not float but it is close to that. I did a rough measure and I believe that the walls has a thickness of about 3 mm. I think that it is very dangerous to go below that thickness because of the crystals, which are of course not compact due to the crystalline structure. But I too am convinced that it is not old, because I do not see any wear or scratches on it.
Kind regards
Giovanni


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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 05:51:24 pm »

It could be Onyx that is color treated by boiling with a sugar solution then sulphuric acid. Since this treatment isn't very deep any attempt to remove any part of the treated surface would result in removing that treated surface completely.

Black agate and Yemeni agate is liked in Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, and Middle East due to religious or spiritual or myths or whatever.

Some facts about the black agates which are sold in these markets via Gemological Institute of Pakistan revealed that it is either black glass which is also sold in the name of Black tourmaline and also a Dyed brownish type agate which looks black agate in ordinary light.

I read that most of this stuff comes from china in cut and polished form to Iran and Pakistan. Then Iran and Pakistan dealers spread this stuff in different markets.



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« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 09:33:40 pm »

Hi Giovanni

Thanks for sharing this interesting bottle.

I have a similar one that I labelled "The Penguin".

Enjoy.


Richard


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Richard from sunny Singapore
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« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 10:11:09 pm »

Hi Richard,

I knew I had seen a bottle similar to Giovanni's, but could not remember where. Consequently I did not mention it.

Now I remember where...!

Regards,
Tom
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2016, 01:38:39 am »

Dear Richard,

     GOOD ONE! Well named.
Best,
Joey



Hi Giovanni

Thanks for sharing this interesting bottle.

I have a similar one that I labelled "The Penguin".

Enjoy.


Richard
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Joey Silver, collecting snuff bottles since Feb.1970

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2016, 02:14:25 am »

Dear George,
have you seen the Chinese site (my link above) where they sell this type of natural stone in large quantity? After seeing that, I have no more doubt that the bottle is natural and not dyed.
Dear Richard, nice bottle, thank you. Is it well hollowed? I prefer my one because of the thin white layer that contour the crystals zone.
That of the name is a good idea, I will call my one “The smiling mouth”.
Giovanni
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2016, 12:23:34 pm »

Dear George,
have you seen the Chinese site (my link above) where they sell this type of natural stone in large quantity? After seeing that, I have no more doubt that the bottle is natural and not dyed.


I am not a gemologist, so need a little help, but nothing about this material looks natural to me. It looks like a conglomerate of agate pieces compacted together..


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« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2016, 12:53:07 pm »

Dear George, I believe that it is just a pile of agate slices.
Giovanni
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« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2016, 09:00:48 pm »

Dear George, I believe that it is just a pile of agate slices.
Giovanni


Like similar material they make counter tops with.. https://www.aeonstonetile.com/stones/semi-precious/
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