Mongolia Bottles And Traditional Snuff Use

[George]

Darn...

Now that I am no longer a member, my last copy was Spring issue !

Would love to read it..

Could you possibly scan it and either PM it to me, or if your comfortable with posting it ?

[Wattana]

Hi George,

Can send you a PDF file privately. Reluctant to post it on the forum, in case of copyright issues with JICSBS.

Tom

[George]

That would be great.. Would really like to read your article

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Congratulations, Tom!
  Wonderful! I'll make sure to read it, when I see my Journal.
 Best, Joey

[Wattana]

Joey,

Don't hold your expectations too high! The original article was extensively cut by Berthe, who perhaps didn't think her readers would appreciate some of the less relevant personal anecdotes. To be fair, I imagine there was also limited space.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom,
  Berthe must have felt there was merit in the article, or she'd not have published it at any length. She's a tough editor.
I know. 
  I gave a seminar on modern artists in IPSBs in San Francisco at the 2006 ICSBS convention. She asked me o submit it for publication in the Journal. She was very polite but VERY firm. After a few rewrites and editorial 'tweaking' it was ready for publication.

  I was then asked to give another seminar on what NOT to buy in a snuff bottle, in Toronto in 2007. Very generously on his part,  I was allowed to go through JerryL's 'crap and seriously bad crap' pile (in fairness, almost all bottles he'd got when he was buying a lot of 3-6 bottles, in order to get the one unrecognised gem in a pile of sh-t), and chose examples which would illustrate my seminar well. I had gotten rid of all such stuff in my collection many years earlier, and now I just give away stuff like that, to room maids who admire it etc.

  It actually happened in Toronto, that a room maid, who was cleaning my suite as I was tightening up my lecture, made an admiring comment about a bottle. I knew from JerryL  that I was not to bother sending back these dregs of snuff bottles, so I arranged to give it to her after my seminar, as a gift. I believe I gave the rest of them to an Anglican Church charity shop after the seminar (JerryL and family are Anglican/Episcopal Church of Scotland).

  I peppered my talk, to the amusement of most, if not all of the collectors present, with expletives and racy comments, and thus guaranteed that Berthe wouldn't ask me to transcribe it for the Journal! 

Joey

[Wattana]

Joey,

That was indeed a cunning ploy, not to mention a generous gesture by Jerry!

By the way, which issue of the Journal was your article published in? Was it the Spring 2007 issue, following the 2006 convention? I honestly don't remember reading it. I will have to pull out my back issues to find it.

Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Tom,
   Would you believe I don't even know?! I think, based on the to and fro with Berthe, that it was later than Spring 2007; possibly Summer 2007, or even Autumn 2007. I don't even have a copy here in Jerusalem, though I have a few in my library in Ireland. I'll ask Berthe to send me a copy from Baltimore.
Joey

[Wattana]

   Would you believe I don't even know?! I think, based on the to and from with Berthe, that it was later than Spring 2007; possibly Summer 2007, or even Autumn 2007.

Joey,
   I found the article last night. It is in the Winter 2007 issue. I look forward to re-reading it with hindsight this week.
Tom

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Enjoy! 
Joey

[George]

As collectors, how can one not appreciate seeing this traditional use of snuff today. Combined with watching (or if your lucky enough) to participate in the tradition with families like these sharing and passing around their treasured snuff bottles between both themselves and guests.

I just think it is pretty cool...

Hi George,

Just to let you know that an article on Mongolian bottles I wrote some years ago has finally been published in the latest issue of the ICSBS Journal.

Tom

Even though I am no laonger an ICSBS member, received the Autumn issue.. I opened it at the post office and tossed the wrapping into their garbage, not paying any attention to the return address.. Only to get home and realize this issue holds your article !!

Di you sent this to me Tom ??

[Wattana]

...Only to get home and realize this issue holds your article !!

Did you sent this to me Tom ??

Hi George,

No. I did not send you the Journal - it must be the ICSBS, trying to win you back!
Anyhow, glad to know you now have a copy of this issue.

Tom

[George]

I want to comment/discuss your wonderful article Tom..

You mention how "with all the focused study and interest in the bottles themselves we seem to have lost sight of the bigger picture.. The social habit of snuff taking".
I feel this to be so true.. !

For myself, and I have only purchased snuff one time, the use of snuff taking really makes me feel closer and more in touch with snuff bottles, and especially Mongolians themselves who still practice this tradition.

It is difficult to put into words, but to be able and experience a social visit with a Mongolian family, exchanging snuff in traditional gesture/manner would just be so wonderful.  There is something about the Mongolian people.. Their faces always show warm, welcoming, and wise features.

So for me, snuff taking, and especially the taking of snuff from a favorite bottle is more than a pleasant experience..
 
To your comment about "the evolution of these palm sized containers entailing a tug of war between changing aesthetic demands and the technical challenges inposed on the craftsmae for maintaining functionality".. When I look at the bottles shared in your article.. My first thought was that those larger bottles ( like in fig. 2, 3, 4, and 5 ) would have been more likely kept in a residence ( more like a table top bottle ) as compared to being carried through the day for sharing and personal use.. I now realize after reading your article that I am mistaken.

I had always thought for a bottle carried daily, that smaller, slender, sloping, or rounded sloping shoulder shaped bottles were created with special thought given towards a comfortable fit into ones palm..

The story behind one particular bottle I have is that it was purchased from a Mongolian elder outside a small village, and carried it for personal use..  It is not the most expensive bottle I have, but because of that connection, it is my most cherished ( 2 1/2" )..  If I were to start carrying a bottle for personal daily use, it would be the only choice from the bottles I have . Can't help but visualize a Mongolian elder having used this bottle when ever I hold it..  There is a degree of nastalgia and special connection for snuff bottles, and snuff usage that makes this particular bottle my most cherished ..


 
I have read else where, and have mentioned within another topic how the silver or pewter bottles set with lavish cabochons are mistakenly thought to be Mongolian, when in fact, as you say in your article, that these are not readily found in Mongolia itself except in tourist/souvenir shops.. That the locals refer to these as Tibetan bottles..
 
After reading through your article, I was reminded yet again from previous comments here on the forum.  To take a favorite bottle from our collection and carry it for a day.. That we may experience a new dimension and appreciation for both the bottle, and the tradition of snuff usage..
 
I just pulled my favorite bottle, and am now carrying it for a couple of days ! 

Wonderful article Tom, and really enjoyed reading it !

[Wattana]

George,

Thanks for your encouraging words. Apart from anything else, it's good to know someone has actually read the article. 

Any more crits like this, and I will have trouble getting my head through the door.

Tom

[Wattana]

George,

I forgot to say anything about the attractive turquoise bottle you posted above. You are quite right to cherish it. It is an extremely rare priviledge to own a snuff bottle that was in use by someone you actually met. That makes it doubly attractive. Most of us will never know who used the bottles we own.

I wasn't quite sure if you met the Mongolian elder in Mongolia, or eslewhere.

Tom

[George]

I should have been more specific..

No.. I did not have the privilege of actually meeting the Elder... The person who sold it to me was the lucky one !

[Wattana]

Too bad!

[Joey Silver / Si Zhouyi 義周司]

Guys,
   I buy snuff at tobacconist's shops in UK/Ireland, and give it out each Shabbat (Sabbath) and Holy Day and especially on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement, just two days ago, 26.Sept).

  If you are Orthodox Jewish, and can't light a cigarette, etc, on Sabbath or Yom Kippur, but still have a nicotine habit (let's be honest; that is what it is, a drug habit), you can take snuff, and still get your nicotine high.

  I give out two types of snuff in Synagogue: strawberry snuff in a silver snuff box with a bone panel carved with a view of the Western Wall (Not the Great Wall!  ); and a modern quartz snuff bottle, carved in Art Deco style, I bought from an Israeli tour escort and guide who works in China.

  He'd bought it in Shanghai in 2001.  I bought it just before the 2001 ICSBS Houston Con., and brought it to Houston, to see what my friends thought of it.

  Real art Deco (ca. 1920s) or modern fake?

 I took it first to the Dealers' Room, and called together about 5 friends who are dealers in Hong Kong, all Chinese (actually also all Muslim! We eat together at the 'No Pork/No Shellfish' table at Society functions...).  I asked their opinion.

  They looked at me a moment, all left the little table we were standing at, where I'd put down my bottle, went to their booths, and came back with, between them, 12 bottles identical to mine!  And all had the same mother of pearl spoons, too.

 We even lined them up so that a vein, running through the quartz, was lined up, and you could see they were all from the same block of quartz!

  Then I asked, "Which one is mine?!"
  Terry Yeung answered, with a laugh," Does it matter? Take any one you want!".

Joey
 

[Wattana]

Joey,

What was missing from your story about the Art Deco bottle was a professional statistical analysis:

Q: What are the chances of 12 identical snuff bottles made in the 1920s all showing up together again in October 2001, some 75 years later?
A: Two hundred and thirty-eight trillion six hundred and seventy-nine billion to one.

Q: What are the chances of 12 identical snuff bottles made in early 2001 all showing up at a snuff bottle convention later the same year?
A: Two to one.

Conclusion: They just came off the production line.  

Tom

[Wattana]

   I buy snuff at tobacconist's shops in UK/Ireland, and give it out each Shabbat...
 

Joey,
   The last time I was in London earlier this year I decided to re-stock on snuff powder (I don't use it, but it animates some of my clear bottles very nicely). I went to all of the old traditional tobacconist's shops that I could remember from 5-6 years ago. They have ALL disappeared, or changed into mobile phone shops. 
Tom